Anyone dry--sumped their Coyote-based engine?

[blacksheep-1]

FWIW and IMO when the LS (bowtie) engines were run in IMSA back in the day, they had to be allowed a dry sump to keep them alive, now I'm not sure if they really needed one or it was a manipulation of the rules, but they sure were losing engines before the dry sump systems were put on. The Boss engines never seemed to need those unless you were trying to get every HP available out of the engine. So.. I'm kind of thinking, that you could run a standard type engine with a wet sump and it would be fine as long as you ran a decent pan and pickup scheme.
Odd how that flat plane crank has had so many problems, they didn't have them back in the old days of the IRL and several NASCAR teams ran them over the years, Both of you guys seem to be running quality dampers. I wonder if the balancing is just not as right or as thorough as it needs to be. The guy that did all that for me has passed away, he could do everything from midget engines to Merlins in a P51.

 

[Ron McCall]

FWIW and IMO when the LS (bowtie) engines were run in IMSA back in the day, they had to be allowed a dry sump to keep them alive, now I'm not sure if they really needed one or it was a manipulation of the rules, but they sure were losing engines before the dry sump systems were put on. The Boss engines never seemed to need those unless you were trying to get every HP available out of the engine. So.. I'm kind of thinking, that you could run a standard type engine with a wet sump and it would be fine as long as you ran a decent pan and pickup scheme.
Odd how that flat plane crank has had so many problems, they didn't have them back in the old days of the IRL and several NASCAR teams ran them over the years, Both of you guys seem to be running quality dampers. I wonder if the balancing is just not as right or as thorough as it needs to be. The guy that did all that for me has passed away, he could do everything from midget engines to Merlins in a P51.

I don' think it's a matter of it being a FPC. I think that it's a matter of it being a 5.,2L FPC. Most of the successful FPC engines are much smaller.
I guess we'll see how the new 'Vette does?

Ron

 

[JDee]

Did they run flat plane cranks in Nascar Cup, or was it 180 degree headers. Stock car guys used to run 180 headers a lot back in the day. They sound very similar to FPC noise to my ear, used to be much higher pitch than normal headers.

But then again my ear hasn't been all that sharp for quite a while.....

 

[honeybadger]

ATI was on mine. Did you measure the hub interference? I’m curious if that’s a common denominator outside just it being ATI dampers

I didn't measure the interference since I don't have the tools to do so accurately enough (that's changing now, tho). Builder did it. I can tell you it wasn't loose. Took 3 men and a barbarian to get off. It was tight.

I had a Dailey dry sump setup on my CPC 5.2L Aluminatir XS . It was a work of art! Very compact and cost was roughly $4,500 with the ATI balancer that is needed to drive the pump.
Best thing is that the sump plumbing is Incorporated into the pan itself as is the mounting bracket for the pump.

Ron

Great to hear. Was that the full kit? Including the tank? Where did you mount the tank? Or was this in your GT?

I don' think it's a matter of it being a FPC. I think that it's a matter of it being a 5.,2L FPC. Most of the successful FPC engines are much smaller.
I guess we'll see how the new 'Vette does?

Ron

Correct. Between the firing order and too much stroke, it's a pretty flawed setup.

 

[navseng]

Dailey engineering is the way to go for dry sump... not speaking of experience with coyote but on other applications they are amazing. Eliminates a ton on plumbing with the integrated pump

 

[navseng]

Did they run flat plane cranks in Nascar Cup, or was it 180 degree headers. Stock car guys used to run 180 headers a lot back in the day. They sound very similar to FPC noise to my ear, used to be much higher pitch than normal headers.

But then again my ear hasn't been all that sharp for quite a while.....

Nascar uses cross plane cranks and regular headers... I havent seen any 180 degree stuff in any recent years. They like tri -y headers, that could be the sound difference.

 

[captdistraction]

I didn't measure the interference since I don't have the tools to do so accurately enough (that's changing now, tho). Builder did it. I can tell you it wasn't loose. Took 3 men and a barbarian to get off. It was tight.



Great to hear. Was that the full kit? Including the tank? Where did you mount the tank? Or was this in your GT?



Correct. Between the firing order and too much stroke, it's a pretty flawed setup.

So if the ATI is too tight, it will break the crank - at least that's the consensus from Ford, ATI and a couple Daimler-Chrysler folk I spoke with on mine, and mirrors what I've seen online with other people posting. Its not always the case, but ATI leaves their units slightly on the tight side and expects the end user to do the measurement, finish hone and final measurement for install. Some of us just bolt them on and are ok, some of us get f^%$ed along the way.

The combination of the tight interference with vibration and harmonics seems to do the job

 

[honeybadger]

So if the ATI is too tight, it will break the crank - at least that's the consensus from Ford, ATI and a couple Daimler-Chrysler folk I spoke with on mine, and mirrors what I've seen online with other people posting. Its not always the case, but ATI leaves their units slightly on the tight side and expects the end user to do the measurement, finish hone and final measurement for install. Some of us just bolt them on and are ok, some of us get f^%$ed along the way.

The combination of the tight interference with vibration and harmonics seems to do the job

Definitely could be. I read that ATI will do it for a nominal fee ($40?) if provide the measurements. So I plan to mic out the new crank and have them supply a new hub with the correct measurements. Don't want to wreck the new one

 

[captdistraction]

I just went back to stock dampers and visually inspecting the elastomer as part of the seasonal refresh schedule.

However I agree with paying ATI to do it, they're pretty friendly folk.

 

[honeybadger]

I just went back to stock dampers and visually inspecting the elastomer as part of the seasonal refresh schedule.

However I agree with paying ATI to do it, they're pretty friendly folk.

Going to need the ATI damper for the dry sump mandrel!

 

[captdistraction]

set aside one for me mr big spender

(from one fellow economy stimulator to another)

 

[blacksheep-1]

Did they run flat plane cranks in Nascar Cup, or was it 180 degree headers. Stock car guys used to run 180 headers a lot back in the day. They sound very similar to FPC noise to my ear, used to be much higher pitch than normal headers.

But then again my ear hasn't been all that sharp for quite a while.....

Everyone went down the "flat plane" road at one point, I don't recall anyone that stayed with it.

this was the Indy version

 

[honeybadger]

set aside one for me mr big spender

(from one fellow economy stimulator to another)

It's time to give this motor the best possible chance to last. I put 43 hours on it last year just at COTA.

Honestly, it would probably be cheaper to get a second car in the end

 

[captdistraction]

zillow sent me a listing just outside COTA that had a shop garage and a few other niceties - maybe a sign.

I have similar thoughts about cars from time to time. Don't you have a miata as well?

Dry sump is on my wishlist, but behind some grip enhancements - I have wet sump developed about as much as one can, and I still see some aeration of the oil on track (not bad, but not dry-sump level of lubrication)

 

[S550AZ]

Just an observation on an article I read, why stay with the flat plane when KohR and Roush already figured out it was not a good idea and developed a 5.2 crossplane crank that eliminates the vibration issues?

A Detailed Look At The KohR Motorsports Mustang GT4 Road Racer

We take an in-depth look at the KohR Motorsports Mustang GT4 racing effort in advance of the season’s final race at Road Atlanta.

www.fordmuscle.com

M-6303-M52B FORD MUSTANG COYOTE 5.2L FORGED CRANKSHAFT | KohR Motorsports

kohrmotorsports.com

 

[honeybadger]

zillow sent me a listing just outside COTA that had a shop garage and a few other niceties - maybe a sign.

I have similar thoughts about cars from time to time. Don't you have a miata as well?

Dry sump is on my wishlist, but behind some grip enhancements - I have wet sump developed about as much as one can, and I still see some aeration of the oil on track (not bad, but not dry-sump level of lubrication)

Yes! 'Tis a good sign!

And yep. Will be breaking out the Miata again. It's technically my buddy's, but we share it. It's a great tool, but not super "fun" when your other car is a cracked out lunatic. I really dream about a Daytona Coupe with a simple 302 in it, solid axle in the rear, some disc brakes, and no aero. Would be a riot to slide around -- enough horsepower to power steer and light enough to not murder you on consumables. Plus, you'd look damn good.

How're you detecting signs of aeration? Your system is damn good

 

[captdistraction]

Yes! 'Tis a good sign!

And yep. Will be breaking out the Miata again. It's technically my buddy's, but we share it. It's a great tool, but not super "fun" when your other car is a cracked out lunatic. I really dream about a Daytona Coupe with a simple 302 in it, solid axle in the rear, some disc brakes, and no aero. Would be a riot to slide around -- enough horsepower to power steer and light enough to not murder you on consumables. Plus, you'd look damn good.

How're you detecting signs of aeration? Your system is damn good

Aeration - just drops in oil pressure during cornering events. Between the modified FRPP pan with 18qts, accusump, the massive pump assembly from boundary and the heads being tied together its not the end of the world - but even after all of that you can see a drop in pressure loaded up (and that's effectively aeration of the oil from pickup)

So far its only on hard right turns with lots of trailbrake into them or decel events in combination (a high gSum in that "northwest" direction)

 

[honeybadger]

Aeration - just drops in oil pressure during cornering events. Between the modified FRPP pan with 18qts, accusump, the massive pump assembly from boundary and the heads being tied together its not the end of the world - but even after all of that you can see a drop in pressure loaded up (and that's effectively aeration of the oil from pickup)

So far its only on hard right turns with lots of trailbrake into them or decel events in combination (a high gSum in that "northwest" direction)
View attachment 73210

That's cool. I forgot you have that level of telemetry. I wonder where I'm having issues. I've never seen my accusump open on track or noticed the gauge dipping, but my telemetry is limited to me own eyeballs and what the Smartycam's 1980s camera sensor can pick up.

 

[blacksheep-1]

have you considered an accusump?

 

[captdistraction]

That's cool. I forgot you have that level of telemetry. I wonder where I'm having issues. I've never seen my accusump open on track or noticed the gauge dipping, but my telemetry is limited to me own eyeballs and what the Smartycam's 1980s camera sensor can pick up.

you don't run any data system? Even a racecapture/Track or solo/soloII DL would do a lot for you (I'm obviously a big AS/L fan as I run mostly the racecapture stuff and I hate my aim smartycam with a fiery passion)

Given how much you have into the motor and track time - I'd definitely feed some data into that smartycam (or have a data readout like I have)