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Anyone looked into TR-3160 upgrades?

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xr7

TMO Addict?
708
823
Exp. Type
Autocross
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10-20 Years
Minnesota
Cool! I hope to get some good mileage out of mine once it’s back together. Pressing 4th and 5th gear onto the countershaft has proven to be just as difficult as it was to press them off. I ended up breaking several teeth) during removal and had to buy new gears. I have another .0650 in. to go before they’re properly seated, but my 12 ton shop press is not up to the task. I may have to enlist the help of a good machine shop with a monster press to get it done.
My favorite gear was the cam gear on a Cummins 855 engine. Our 20 ton press bitched to remove it. To install it you heated it up for about an hour in a toaster oven. Meanwhile you get the cam stood on end in the press, throw hot cam gear on cam and run the press down on it quickly to keep the cam gear from creeping up off the seat as it cooled. Cummins had problems with peeling cam lobes back in the late 80's and early 90's. It was fun while it lasted, big iron.
 
52
44
Exp. Type
Drag Strip
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Florida
My favorite gear was the cam gear on a Cummins 855 engine. Our 20 ton press bitched to remove it. To install it you heated it up for about an hour in a toaster oven. Meanwhile you get the cam stood on end in the press, throw hot cam gear on cam and run the press down on it quickly to keep the cam gear from creeping up off the seat as it cooled. Cummins had problems with peeling cam lobes back in the late 80's and early 90's. It was fun while it lasted, big iron.
Is there anything I can do short of removing the gears and starting over? I only have a little over half an inch to go until both gears are fully seated. I think it would be too risky to try and remove them.
 

xr7

TMO Addict?
708
823
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Minnesota
One thing you could try is get everything set up in the press, apply max pressure and then use a propane torch to warm up the gear, you want to put the heat evenly around the center of the gear away from the teeth. Otherwise a bigger press and nothing pushing or supporting on the teeth.
 
52
44
Exp. Type
Drag Strip
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Florida
One thing you could try is get everything set up in the press, apply max pressure and then use a propane torch to warm up the gear, you want to put the heat evenly around the center of the gear away from the teeth. Otherwise a bigger press and nothing pushing or supporting on the teeth.
Thanks for the tips! I bought a 20 ton press today and it worked, but just barely with no room for error. A 50 ton would be all a guy would ever need.
 
6,363
8,189
Well you did it, but heating up the gear is the way to go. I've installed connecting rods this way, and once that pin is in that rod, there's no way it's coming back out by accident.
 

xr7

TMO Addict?
708
823
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
10-20 Years
Minnesota
Well you did it, but heating up the gear is the way to go. I've installed connecting rods this way, and once that pin is in that rod, there's no way it's coming back out by accident.
GM had a fixture for pushing out and pushing in those damn non-floating piston pins. We had a 100 ton Owatonna Tool press, usually got a snap/crack when the pin final decided to move. The real fun was replacing Hendrickson suspension walking beam bushings. The old press would jump when those bushings decided to move.
 
6,363
8,189
GM had a fixture for pushing out and pushing in those damn non-floating piston pins. We had a 100 ton Owatonna Tool press, usually got a snap/crack when the pin final decided to move. The real fun was replacing Hendrickson suspension walking beam bushings. The old press would jump when those bushings decided to move.
If you look at the junkyard dog build, I made a fixture to press pins in and out.
 
42
23
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
3-5 Years
Texas
So my rebuilder got the MT82 apart, which with its 2 piece shaft that takes a 40ton press to deal with apparently can be a feat in itself. It is pretty worn out. All the syncros are toast, some beyond toast which I expected. 3rd and 6th gears are severely worn and need replacing. Third I can see, it gets a lot of work, but sixth?? This car is never in 6th gear anymore except on the cool down lap as I coast aound the track cooling things down. Gotta believe it's cheap gear sets. All the bearings are fine. He estimates about $1700 Canuck bucks to fix it. That includes replacing all the worn out parts and using the carbon syncro kit from Syncrotec with bronze shift forks and shift stop.

He said a lot of the damage was from using too heavy an oil, which is all on me, I used junk information from another forum when I abandoned the Ford DCT fluid and that was a big mistake. So I am going to go back to the recommended DCT fluid and going ahead with putting coolers on the trans and diff.

I am considering using Amsoil's DCT fluid which meets the Ford spec and is about 4 bucks a quart cheaper up here ($22 a quart Canadian). Not going to use their engine oil, I find it wildly expensive compared to what I can get Pennzoil's PUP for and I'm not convinced it's worth the cost, especially now that a oil change is 10 litres and happens every 2 track days.

Anybody have any experience, good or bad, with Amsoil products, especially their trans/diff lubes? I find their way of doing business odd, kind of cult-ish for lack of a better term.
What oils have you decided to run in your rebuild? What weight were you running that you believe was too heavy that you think contributed to wear?
 

JDee

Ancient Racer
1,797
2,001
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
5 miles from Mosport
What oils have you decided to run in your rebuild? What weight were you running that you believe was too heavy that you think contributed to wear?

I'm using Motul DCT fluid. I had been running the BG trans product, I think it was called SyncroShift II or something like that? At any rate, the trans rebuilder said it was far too heavy. That prevents the syncros from locking up quickly and thus builds heat rapidly. My trans guy was happy with the DCT choice, he is a believer in thinner fluid is better for syncro lock up than thick fluid.

Another big deal is that the stock Ford clutch is junk for a track car, it does not engage/disengage well and as far as I'm concerned it starts the transmission trouble. First thing any track car needs is a good racing clutch, I got an Exedy HyperSingle and it's been hugely better than stock, no comparison at all.

Ford's latest recommendation that I could find is to use their DCT fluid in the MT82. Motul's DCT fluid meets the Ford DCT fluid standard and they make high quality racing oils whereas I don't know where Ford gets their stuff made. So far it's been working well. But again, now there's a cooler on the trans and as far as I'm concerned that's the most important part of the puzzle in keeping the MT82 alive on track. Even at that I'm thinking I'll be lucky to get another year before it needs another rebuild.

At a cost of $2K per rebuild it makes more sense to do that than to spend $10K (that's Canadian$$$) based on a quote for $7200 USD on a Tremec conversion because the Tremec is not going to last forever either and while it may not need to be rebuilt as often, it will still need service. Plus I like the MT82 gear ratios better than the Tremec ones.
 

Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
5,237
4,227
Santiago, Chile
I am in the same boat as you are. A Tremec would be great, but a MT83 rebuild is about the $2500 for me as well vs 10,000 for the whole XL setup. Going to rebuild a second MT82 to have on hand. Maybe one day......
 
1,246
1,243
In the V6L
I'm using Motul DCT fluid. I had been running the BG trans product, I think it was called SyncroShift II or something like that? At any rate, the trans rebuilder said it was far too heavy. That prevents the syncros from locking up quickly and thus builds heat rapidly. My trans guy was happy with the DCT choice, he is a believer in thinner fluid is better for syncro lock up than thick fluid.

Another big deal is that the stock Ford clutch is junk for a track car, it does not engage/disengage well and as far as I'm concerned it starts the transmission trouble. First thing any track car needs is a good racing clutch, I got an Exedy HyperSingle and it's been hugely better than stock, no comparison at all.

Ford's latest recommendation that I could find is to use their DCT fluid in the MT82. Motul's DCT fluid meets the Ford DCT fluid standard and they make high quality racing oils whereas I don't know where Ford gets their stuff made. So far it's been working well. But again, now there's a cooler on the trans and as far as I'm concerned that's the most important part of the puzzle in keeping the MT82 alive on track. Even at that I'm thinking I'll be lucky to get another year before it needs another rebuild.

At a cost of $2K per rebuild it makes more sense to do that than to spend $10K (that's Canadian$$$) based on a quote for $7200 USD on a Tremec conversion because the Tremec is not going to last forever either and while it may not need to be rebuilt as often, it will still need service. Plus I like the MT82 gear ratios better than the Tremec ones.
I use Motorcraft DCT fluid in my TR3160 along with XL18 friction modifier (that's formulated to work with XT-11-QDC). Much better shifting than the LV ATF that's spec'd. It's also what I ran in my MT82 back when I had one.

Now, I only mention XT-11-QDC because of the comment "Motul [makes] high quality racing oils whereas I don't know where Ford gets their stuff made". Well, with no disrespect to Motul (yes, they make great stuff) I can tell you where the Motorcraft fluid comes from. I did a ton of digging back in the day and eventually found a "fill recommendation" for the Mustang in South Africa. Recommended MT82 fill is Castrol BOT350-M3 in that market. Backtracking further, it looks like BOT350-M3 was formulated by Castrol in Europe for Ford's European DCT's somewhere in the 2005 - 2008 time frame. Now, Castrol makes excellent gear lubes and a modern formulation had a lot to like, so I went with it and it's been my problem-solver ever since. The real magic for great shifting is actually the dose of XL-18, which I wouldn't add to any oil other than the one it's made for.

Update: I went back and looked at the MSDS for XT-11-QDC and it shows viscosity of 32.2 cSt at 40C and a pour point of -57C. A Google search for Castrol BOT350-M3 turned up a 2022 datasheet for Castrol Transmax Manual FE 75W, which shows viscosity of 32.2 cSt at 40C and a pour point of -57C. What a coincidence!
 
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This is helpful and interesting about thicker oils causing problems with the syncros. I'm using BG syncro shift in my 2011 but still getting 1-2 grinding on low rpm shifts and I think I want to try something else based on what you all are saying. @JAJ and @JDee, I'm sorry you lost me a bit with the Motul DCT vs. Motocraft DCT vs. XT-11-QDC. All combined with the XL-18? Which exact combination do you recommend? Many thanks!
 

JDee

Ancient Racer
1,797
2,001
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
Exp. Level
20+ Years
5 miles from Mosport
@stevbd
I run straight Motul DCT, nothing else is added to it.

I am in the same boat as you are. A Tremec would be great, but a MT83 rebuild is about the $2500 for me as well vs 10,000 for the whole XL setup. Going to rebuild a second MT82 to have on hand. Maybe one day......
That seems like a hell of a good idea. Already looking for a wrecker car for some parts, will add a trans to the list.
 

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