Anyone running a boosted mustang on road courses? IE Streets of Willow?

[exxit]

I'm looking to put together a track friendly streetable S550. I've been throwing around the prospect of a 2017, or going with the 2018-2019 models that offer a bit more umph NA.

I also have a sickness that involves wanting boost and the possibility of big power (say with a pulley and tune change) Turbos on this platform are not fun for prolonged street use so I imagine it would be exponentially worse for track.

Has anyone had success running a water meth cooled centri setup on their S550? Would you do it again?

My plan would be to run as LITTLE boost as possible on track days to help with overall heat issues, and once I have enough street time I'd want to upgrade to a higher speed option like Willow springs or a similar local track.

I tried to track down this info and a lot of the advice is "Stay NA" which I understand and respect. I wanted to hear from folks who decided to not go with that advice and how it went for them.


Looking forward to learning tons from this forum and hopefully not getting an SS1le like my "track" buddies have been pressuring me to do instead

 

[blacksheep-1]

Generally speaking blowers don't do as well as turbos on road courses. They build too much heat after a few laps. Even a turbo has issues dumping heat, but the work around is much easier with an intercooler.

 

[exxit]

Generally speaking blowers don't do as well as turbos on road courses. They build too much heat after a few laps. Even a turbo has issues dumping heat, but the work around is much easier with an intercooler.

Centri blowers use an intercooler almost identical with a turbo setup, however there isn’t a hot side. For that reason they can benefit from boost cooling via a water mister on the intercooler itself and water meth injection directly into the charge pipe going into the TB/intake manifold.
I’ve seen at least one person run a boosted coyote on a tight road course at streets of willow, and I’m aware that it would make the car misbehave more due to how it would mess with suspension, I’m not looking to go pro or chase record times. I’m interested in a car that’s versatile, fast on the street for my own enjoyment, but with a much larger pulley and tune change; still viable at the track.

I appreciate the insight!

 

[blacksheep-1]

Centri blowers use an intercooler almost identical with a turbo setup, however there isn’t a hot side. For that reason they can benefit from boost cooling via a water mister on the intercooler itself and water meth injection directly into the charge pipe going into the TB/intake manifold.
I’ve seen at least one person run a boosted coyote on a tight road course at streets of willow, and I’m aware that it would make the car misbehave more due to how it would mess with suspension, I’m not looking to go pro or chase record times. I’m interested in a car that’s versatile, fast on the street for my own enjoyment, but with a much larger pulley and tune change; still viable at the track.

I appreciate the insight!

I've never been a centri blower fan, they tried to take the best of both worlds, turbo and positive displacement and create the best of both worlds.. they kinda did, but they don't build boost anywhere near as fast as.. say a kenne bell, those dyno numbers go up right after you touch the gas pedal.. but you get a lot of heat and the blower has to be sized for the car. Even with an aftercooler, the engine will still pull timing after a few laps. It will with the centri eventually as well and generally the centri will not build boost as fast ( more like a turbo) so in some ways it's not as good as a KB from a near idle. I've owned 2 blown cars, I still have the Gt500. Great fun, I've autocrossed it where it had time to cool down, but I don't think it would work as well on a road course.
The weight issue is a consideration, but not a deal killer. If you do the math, I think you'll find it will increase the front end weight by less than 3%, but again, it's in the worst place possible, in front of the front axle centerline, where it not only adds weight, but acts like a pendulum.
If I were you, I'd try to make a KB work, because it's attributes are phenomenal. Whatever you do, it's going to be a compromise somewhere.
There used to be a product out there called the " killer chiller" that plumbed into the car's AC, and basically used a seperate evaporator scheme to cool the intake air. It was pretty awesome.

 

[PatientZero]

Liquid supercharging is the route I went.

 

[exxit]

Liquid supercharging is the route I went.

not sure why I glanced over this option. NA at the track, liquid boost for when the NA power isn’t fun. This may be the middle ground I’m looking for.

I've never been a centri blower fan, they tried to take the best of both worlds, turbo and positive displacement and create the best of both worlds.. they kinda did, but they don't build boost anywhere near as fast as.. say a kenne bell, those dyno numbers go up right after you touch the gas pedal.. but you get a lot of heat and the blower has to be sized for the car. Even with an aftercooler, the engine will still pull timing after a few laps. It will with the centri eventually as well and generally the centri will not build boost as fast ( more like a turbo) so in some ways it's not as good as a KB from a near idle. I've owned 2 blown cars, I still have the Gt500. Great fun, I've autocrossed it where it had time to cool down, but I don't think it would work as well on a road course.
The weight issue is a consideration, but not a deal killer. If you do the math, I think you'll find it will increase the front end weight by less than 3%, but again, it's in the worst place possible, in front of the front axle centerline, where it not only adds weight, but acts like a pendulum.
If I were you, I'd try to make a KB work, because it's attributes are phenomenal. Whatever you do, it's going to be a compromise somewhere.
There used to be a product out there called the " killer chiller" that plumbed into the car's AC, and basically used a seperate evaporator scheme to cool the intake air. It was pretty awesome.

Id think being able to cool the boost in the ways I mentioned would help but you make a valid point it will add very awkward weight to the front end and cause the car to behave terribly outside of the straight. I guess I’ll hold to see if anyone has pulled it off as I did find some folks who did this to their boss 302’s. I don’t mind much about the boost lag more than I worry about heat.

 

[PatientZero]

not sure why I glanced over this option. NA at the track, liquid boost for when the NA power isn’t fun. This may be the middle ground I’m looking for.

Exactly the reason I picked it. I love boost. If my car was more of a street car and I was less concerned about being competitive it would probably have a turbo or two. I went with the nitrous to have some fun on the street/drag strip but still not have any extra weight/heat at the track. Win win to me.

 

[Mistaricky]

I don't have any boost, but these cars already get pretty hot without boost. If you do plan to go this route I would strongly advise upgrading all of the cooling system and ideally you vent the hood as well. I want to add a supercharger on to my car in the future but I have WAY more left on the table to do with weight, suspension and mostly driver mod before I consider that.

 

[exxit]

I don't have any boost, but these cars already get pretty hot without boost. If you do plan to go this route I would strongly advise upgrading all of the cooling system and ideally you vent the hood as well. I want to add a supercharger on to my car in the future but I have WAY more left on the table to do with weight, suspension and mostly driver mod before I consider that.

Yessir there really isn’t a budget for this, I’m going with a coyote for the low entry cost and can dedicate whatever amount of money and r&d it’ll take to find a working solution. I’ve driven a fbo na e85 coyote and I know that off the track it’ll feel painfully slow to me.
I’m hoping someone on this forum has a successful or unsuccessful anecdote for a boosted coyote on a road course like streets of willow and can provide actual instead instead of theoretical naysay.
I’ve personally experienced how terrible roots style applications are with heat and am interested in hearing if anyone has been able to to couple boost juice (water meth) and intercooler misters to combat this successfully on smaller road courses.

I still plan to put in the due diligence with extreme weight loss and suspension, but would like to do it with more power than ~450whp

 

[Mistaricky]

Yessir there really isn’t a budget for this, I’m going with a coyote for the low entry cost and can dedicate whatever amount of money and r&d it’ll take to find a working solution. I’ve driven a fbo na e85 coyote and I know that off the track it’ll feel painfully slow to me.
I’m hoping someone on this forum has a successful or unsuccessful anecdote for a boosted coyote on a road course like streets of willow and can provide actual instead instead of theoretical naysay.
I’ve personally experienced how terrible roots style applications are with heat and am interested in hearing if anyone has been able to to couple boost juice (water meth) and intercooler misters to combat this successfully on smaller road courses.

I still plan to put in the due diligence with extreme weight loss and suspension, but would like to do it with more power than ~450whp

What is your power goal?
Because if you are looking for 500-600 range you could dump the money into an N/A setup. Yes, it will be less horse power per dollar, but it will be way less heat than a boosted setup.
Anything over 600, I agree that you need boost and would just need to focus on managing heat.

 

[exxit]

What is your power goal?
Because if you are looking for 500-600 range you could dump the money into an N/A setup. Yes, it will be less horse power per dollar, but it will be way less heat than a boosted setup.
Anything over 600, I agree that you need boost and would just need to focus on managing heat.

On the track I’d be looking to minimize heat and run the least amount of boost possible. This would be achieved by running an e85 tune for the largest available pulley on the centri blower of choice reducing heat produced from the head unit by spinning the unit less. I’d then run water misters on the intercooler, and run the largest trans and diff cooler I can fashion.
Then when off the track or when I know there isn’t a track day coming up, I’d run a much smaller pulley and enjoy that version of the car in my normal spots, maybe with a suspension adjustment to go with it.

If it comes down to it not working out at all I may just finish a street build on the coyote since it’s truly best bang for buck and search for another track dedicated car as something I store until track days exclusively.

I know I will be leaving time on the table to accomplish this but I’m not planning to do anything past have a good time at the track with friends. Possibly try something highspeed like willow springs if I feel confident enough in the setup.

 

[PatientZero]

I'm pretty sure the gen 3 Coyotes can get over 500whp fairly easily.

As for hands on experience. Jonathan Blevins at Chicane23 has a boosted track car and Matt Ramirez also has a big centrifugal blower on his Mustang. What they have in common is they run Optima Ultimate Street Car challenge which is an autocross and time trial format(fastest lap). So neither really has to do extended lapping sessions, just a single balls out lap. I don't think you're going to find a ton of hands on experience with boosted track cars on this forum, nobody does it because of the previously mentioned reasons.

I used to have a SR20 powered Nissan Silvia running about 19lbs of boost via a TD06-20g, a 4" core air-to-air intercooler, and methanol injection. I made it halfway around Mugello Circuit before it was literally melting the silicone couplers on the intercooler piping. I could be mistaken but I think even the lastest GT500 has heat issues for extended lapping sessions.

 

[PatientZero]

If you look across brands. The C7 Z06 and Camaro ZL1 are both factory built track cars with boost. Both have heat exchangers everywhere they could fit one and both still have heat issues.

 

[exxit]

If you look across brands. The C7 Z06 and Camaro ZL1 are both factory built track cars with boost. Both have heat exchangers everywhere they could fit one and both still have heat issues.

This is a fair point against Roots style setups and was the main reason I never took my modded shelby to the road course. It struggled to stay at healthy temps street driving so I knew it would suck horribly at the track.


This is why I want to see if anyone has been able to do this on a centri setup because of the turbo style intercooler, lack of a hot side, and the ability to run multiple cooling options. I know I've repeated myself at least 4 times now but misters on the IC to cool the boost there, and water meth injection right before the TB to cool the boost once again on the way into the motor.


I would hope at least one person has given it a shot

 

[PatientZero]

If you have instagram try reaching out to @Regularassmustang or @regularassmustangdad and pick their brain. They have a Procharger I think and they're out in Cali/Nevada somewhere(it's hot).

 

[Dave_W]

Beware of running IC misters on track - you could get black flagged for dropping fluid on the racing surface. They might keep your intake temps down, but the guy behind you on slicks might spin out if, for instance, there's residual catching on a belly tray and sloshing out in a corner.

I'm not sure how much cooler a centrifugal blower output is going to be vs a turbo, just because the blower doesn't have a "hot side." The blower is sucking HP off the crank to run, where a turbo is scavenging wasted exhaust energy. The key to turbos on a road course (or autocross) is to not oversize them. At a drag strip you can build boost at the start line; on a road course you want to have the boost available as soon as you feed in the throttle on corner exit. Ideally, you want the turboed engine to drive just like a bigger NA engine.

Going back to centrifugal blowers, the boost/rpm charts I've seen when Engine Masters does a show with a Procharger looks like it builds boost pretty linearly with rpm. Which won't give you the big push off corner exit like a turbo or Roots, but it is less likely to light the tires on exit (if you're traction-limited) while still giving you a shove at the top end.

 

[exxit]

Beware of running IC misters on track - you could get black flagged for dropping fluid on the racing surface. They might keep your intake temps down, but the guy behind you on slicks might spin out if, for instance, there's residual catching on a belly tray and sloshing out in a corner.

I'm not sure how much cooler a centrifugal blower output is going to be vs a turbo, just because the blower doesn't have a "hot side." The blower is sucking HP off the crank to run, where a turbo is scavenging wasted exhaust energy. The key to turbos on a road course (or autocross) is to not oversize them. At a drag strip you can build boost at the start line; on a road course you want to have the boost available as soon as you feed in the throttle on corner exit. Ideally, you want the turboed engine to drive just like a bigger NA engine.

Going back to centrifugal blowers, the boost/rpm charts I've seen when Engine Masters does a show with a Procharger looks like it builds boost pretty linearly with rpm. Which won't give you the big push off corner exit like a turbo or Roots, but it is less likely to light the tires on exit (if you're traction-limited) while still giving you a shove at the top end.

You touched on exactly why I am leaning centri... I'm not looking to further upset the car more than boost already does and I feel like Centri can accomplish that if and only if you can get the IATs in check.

I'll try talking to the two mentioned above as they're in my neck of the woods and experience those hot track days I'm talking about.

I also acknowledge that a crappy water sprayer will cause issues for folks, so will be wary of that route and only attempt to take it if and only if the water/meth combo can't keep me cool enough to enjoy the car on 5-6psi baby boost.


I REALLY appreciate the insight!

 

[exxit]

If you have instagram try reaching out to @Regularassmustang or @regularassmustangdad and pick their brain. They have a Procharger I think and they're out in Cali/Nevada somewhere(it's hot).

huge thank you for the recommendation, I shot Matt a message.

That procharger looks extra tight in his new edge's engine bay so maybe he can give me some pointers on how to pull this off without putting a bottle and direct port nitrous into the car... I'm not opposed but then it would mean spending a bunch on head/cam which won't really do me much good once I inevitably go boosted on the car.

 

[SMGDHG]

I have asked myself the same question.

As boring as it sounds, it all comes down to math



Most centri blowers are in the efficiency range of 75%+. You can calculate and predict how much heat gain your supercharger will give you, and then from there deduce if an intercooler would have sufficient capacity to take that extra heat out. I did the calculation for my car once and it was entirely feasible from a temperature perspective to run a centri blower on low boost with a gigantic intercooler on cooler days. But after pricing out a race duty centri blower kit for my car, I deemed it not worth the time, effort or expense.

Temperature gain = (Pressure Ratio^0.28-1) x Absolute ambient air temp°

Then, you have to divide the above result by the efficiency % of whatever blower you are running. The nicest vortech units I believe were near 80%.

For 6psi of boost at 100°F ambient temperature for example:

((14.7psi + 6psi/14.7psi)^0.28-1) x 560°

(1.4^0.28-1) x 560° = 55.32°absolute

CENTRI BLOWER (assume efficiency is 75%)
55.32°/0.75 = 73.76°absolute
Final charge air temperature = heat produced by the blower + ambient air temperature

73.75°absolute+ 560°absolute= 634° abs = 174°F.

So on a 100°F day running 6psi of boost w/out an intercooler, the air entering the combustion chambers will be at a MINIMUM 174°F. In reality, once you factor in heat soak I'd bet it's closer to 190°F.

You then need to calculate what size of intercooler you need to drop that 74° heat gain the blower gave you. I never calc'd that out, partially because I was never able to find BTU quotations from any of the intercooler manufacturers on the market.

But it would be a heat exchanger calculation that would need to take into account your ambient air temp, average speed on track, density of the fluid you are cooling (air) and what fluid you are cooling with (would either be water for an air to water intercooler or air for an air to air intercooler).

From what I remember, vortech race duty blowers had by far the best efficiency. They had one unit that for 6psi, was I think 82% efficient. A PD blower will never get anywhere near that. Keep in mind that certain vortech head units are more or less efficient in certain boost ranges, ie, a head unit which is designed to deliver a max boost of 30psi but is only being ran at 6psi will not have as efficient of a turbine wheel as a unit which is designed for a maximum of 12psi being ran at 6psi. Typical pump curve, part of the physics of impeller design. Vortech had charts on their website and their customer service was helpful. I emailed them and a designer got in touch with me.

 

[exxit]

I have asked myself the same question.

As boring as it sounds, it all comes down to math



Most centri blowers are in the efficiency range of 75%+. You can calculate and predict how much heat gain your supercharger will give you, and then from there deduce if an intercooler would have sufficient capacity to take that extra heat out. I did the calculation for my car once and it was entirely feasible from a temperature perspective to run a centri blower on low boost with a gigantic intercooler on cooler days. But after pricing out a race duty centri blower kit for my car, I deemed it not worth the time, effort or expense.

Temperature gain = (Pressure Ratio^0.28-1) x Absolute ambient air temp°

Then, you have to divide the above result by the efficiency % of whatever blower you are running. The nicest vortech units I believe were near 80%.

For 6psi of boost at 100°F ambient temperature for example:

((14.7psi + 6psi/14.7psi)^0.28-1) x 560°

(1.4^0.28-1) x 560° = 55.32°absolute

CENTRI BLOWER (assume efficiency is 75%)
55.32°/0.75 = 73.76°absolute
Final charge air temperature = heat produced by the blower + ambient air temperature

73.75°absolute+ 560°absolute= 634° abs = 174°F.

So on a 100°F day running 6psi of boost w/out an intercooler, the air entering the combustion chambers will be at a MINIMUM 174°F. In reality, once you factor in heat soak I'd bet it's closer to 190°F.

You then need to calculate what size of intercooler you need to drop that 74° heat gain the blower gave you. I never calc'd that out, partially because I was never able to find BTU quotations from any of the intercooler manufacturers on the market.

But it would be a heat exchanger calculation that would need to take into account your ambient air temp, average speed on track, density of the fluid you are cooling (air) and what fluid you are cooling with (would either be water for an air to water intercooler or air for an air to air intercooler).

From what I remember, vortech race duty blowers had by far the best efficiency. They had one unit that for 6psi, was I think 82% efficient. A PD blower will never get anywhere near that. Keep in mind that certain vortech head units are more or less efficient in certain boost ranges, ie, a head unit which is designed to deliver a max boost of 30psi but is only being ran at 6psi will not have as efficient of a turbine wheel as a unit which is designed for a maximum of 12psi being ran at 6psi. Typical pump curve, part of the physics of impeller design. Vortech had charts on their website and their customer service was helpful. I emailed them and a designer got in touch with me.

I wonder how greatly boost juice (50/50 water meth) would affect this math.

I spoke to regularassmustang as suggested above… he was pretty reassuring that it’s doable and centri is the way to go. I’m convinced I’m going to take the leap and give it a shot. Worst case I keep the mustang as a street murderer and build it to be my last 6 speed 900+whp built toy while sporting something else for time attack or road courses.

I really appreciate you sharing your homework on it with me.