Camber for autocross and road course

[G-HORCE]

Hi. New to the site, and hoping for some sound advice. I have done about 10 autocrosses and 2 track sprints on a road course. Was hooked after the first one, despite the terrible driving and, I’ve since learned, detrimental hard, staggered tires. I’ve just upgraded my 2017 base GT with the following:
GT350R springs
Ford Perfomance Pack shock and strut package
Eibach sway bars front and rear
Vorshlag caster/camber plates
Apex EC7 wheels, 19x11
RE-71R tires, 305/30r19 square
ARP stud kit, Gorilla lugs, 1” front spacers

It is a totally different car now - mostly the tires, I assume - and I’m suddenly on the verge of being competitive in local events, despite me having a lot to learn as a driver. I’m running in CAMC. The camber is set to -2.4 front, -1.5 rear. The car is not a daily driver, and at this point isn’t used much on public roads to spare treadlife. I have been driving on the RE-71Rs to events, 200-300 mile round-trips.

1) Would more neg camber be beneficial for autocross? I think I have room for another 0.5°-1.0°. Not sure.

2) Would the ideal settings be different on a road course?

3) What about treadwear, including highway trips to races? Will I get a lot of inner shoulder wear?

Any help much appreciated. Thanks

 

[302 Hi Pro]

G-Horce

Welcome to TMO & you have come to the right Forum for answers. You’ll find there are Members here that are experts on this topic.

Great 1st Post.

Good Luck & Good Racing.

 

[PatientZero]

Next time you do an autocross mark the edge of your tires with chalk. After you run see how close you got to the edge of the tire. If you're rolling over on the sidewall then you need more camber. You can also use a tire pyrometer and check the temperature at both edges and the middle. If you're heating up one edge more than the other then you need to adjust camber away from that edge so that your whole contact patch is heating evenly.

It would be hard to just pull numbers out of thin air to tell you. It all depends on your driving style, how hard you're pushing the car, what tires you're using, the surface you're running on, etc, etc.

Here is a good article to read.

Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - Alignment

Autocross to Win, a technical discussion of preparing winning autocross cars.

farnorthracing.com

 

[G-HORCE]

Thank you. Appreciate the article. The tires have NOT been rolling over onto the sidewall, so that’s a good indicator alone? Still experimenting, but 34 psi front, and 32 psi rear seems good.

Both courses I’ve run on so far were concrete with a fair amount of grit and pea gravel. I assume that sort of less-grippy surface would require less-aggressive camber.

My driving style is “under construction” maybe. Still getting used to this car, and I have a lot to learn regardless. But a couple of the more experienced guys have said I over-drive the car, and need to be smoother and more patient.

Next time you do an autocross mark the edge of your tires with chalk. After you run see how close you got to the edge of the tire. If you're rolling over on the sidewall then you need more camber. You can also use a tire pyrometer and check the temperature at both edges and the middle. If you're heating up one edge more than the other then you need to adjust camber away from that edge so that your whole contact patch is heating evenly.

It would be hard to just pull numbers out of thin air to tell you. It all depends on your driving style, how hard you're pushing the car, what tires you're using, the surface you're running on, etc, etc.

Here is a good article to read.

Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - Alignment

Autocross to Win, a technical discussion of preparing winning autocross cars.

farnorthracing.com

 

[PatientZero]

Thank you. Appreciate the article. The tires have NOT been rolling over onto the sidewall, so that’s a good indicator alone? Still experimenting, but 34 psi front, and 32 psi rear seems good.

Both courses I’ve run on so far were concrete with a fair amount of grit and pea gravel. I assume that sort of less-grippy surface would require less-aggressive camber.

My driving style is “under construction” maybe. Still getting used to this car, and I have a lot to learn regardless. But a couple of the more experienced guys have said I over- drive the car, and need to be more smoother and more patient.

I think both your assumptions are correct. I think I also have the same problem with driving. Sometimes I feel like I have a really fast run only to find out it was crap. Just remember, Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

 

[BmacIL]

I'd run as much front camber as you can get: above or at -3 is beneficial for both grip and wear. Once you're up that high on the front, -2.0 rear is fantastic for autocross for corner exit grip. Toe is what wears tires on the street.

 

[blacksheep-1]

It's amazing to watch a guy like John Hienricy drive, he's about the most laid back driver, looks like a Sunday drive, yet he is a rocket.
If you try to get 3 degrees out of the front end, I think it would help, a lot of guys are cutting shock towers to get there. If you are driving it on the street, you may just have to live with a good aggressive street performance alignment. Are you allowed a strut tower brace? With regards to the tires, maybe they aren't rolling over because they have too much pressure, or maybe the front end isn't stuck, most autocrosses seem to be point and shoot affairs where road courses have longer corners and straights. The handling is related, but not exactly the same, still if you're new you prolly wouldn't appreciate the difference.
Usually the best mod is the driver mod.BTW is this car pushing or loose?

 

[G-HORCE]

Thanks. Very little street driving. Racing and traveling to races are the vast majority of miles. I think it’ll go to -3 without modifying. Not sure if I’ll try it this season.

I’m going to try 36/34 pressures to start this weekend, then finish at 30/28. Higher and lower than the range I’ve been in. Maybe I’ll be able to notice enough to make a decision.

The car feels a bit tail happy, but I think that’s because I’m coming from a set-up that was pushing horribly. Not used to it yet. The shop that advised on the parts and did the work is highly reputable, and says there should be a slight understeer, which I asked for, as I’m an intermediate-level driver at best.

Definitely getting a lot of seat time this season. I’m bummed that most events aren’t allowing passengers because I’d really like to get some instruction. Raced with Jay Toussaint last month and he was glad to help but couldn’t ride with me. Missed opportunity there!

It's amazing to watch a guy like John Hienricy drive, he's about the most laid back driver, looks like a Sunday drive, yet he is a rocket.
If you try to get 3 degrees out of the front end, I think it would help, a lot of guys are cutting shock towers to get there. If you are driving it on the street, you may just have to live with a good aggressive street performance alignment. Are you allowed a strut tower brace? With regards to the tires, maybe they aren't rolling over because they have too much pressure, or maybe the front end isn't stuck, most autocrosses seem to be point and shoot affairs where road courses have longer corners and straights. The handling is related, but not exactly the same, still if you're new you prolly wouldn't appreciate the difference.
Usually the best mod is the driver mod.BTW is this car pushing or loose?

 

[BmacIL]

I’m going to try 36/34 pressures to start this weekend, then finish at 30/28. Higher and lower than the range I’ve been in. Maybe I’ll be able to notice enough to make a decision.

36/34 is way too high for RE71Rs and good camber. They'll just get hot and be more peaky. Target 31/28 hot pressures for autocross. On the street I bump them to 31-32 cold all around to ensure even wear.

 

[Coz]

A peek into the future.

Automated Wheel Alignment To Improve Handling, Lower Tire Wear

In another trickle-down of motorsports technology to the road market, DOFTEK has developed a variable alignment system for road vehicles.

www.motor1.com

 

[Ludachris]

A peek into the future.

Automated Wheel Alignment To Improve Handling, Lower Tire Wear

In another trickle-down of motorsports technology to the road market, DOFTEK has developed a variable alignment system for road vehicles.

www.motor1.com

That's a great opportunity in the market. I hope they make a big splash.

 

[Ludachris]

Here is a good article to read.

Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - Alignment

Autocross to Win, a technical discussion of preparing winning autocross cars.

farnorthracing.com

Sorry, way off topic here, but I just wanted to add that Dennis Grant - the guy who wrote that article, is highly regarded in the Mitsubishi racing/autocross world (which I'm very familiar with). He actually designed some suspension pieces and freely shared those drawings with that community so that racers could get them fabricated by machine shops and piece together their own coilover kits using off the shelf shocks, since there weren't/aren't too many great options in that market. It's pretty amazing to see his write-ups referenced here in a Mustang forum.

 

[Coz]

That's a great opportunity in the market.

Well, they're certainly the first ones with their toe into it...

 

[G-HORCE]

Thanks. Lots of varying opinions, but I suspect you’re right. I think I’m going to start there though to see what it’s like, and hopefully get a better feel for how pressures effect handling and grip in this car.

36/34 is way too high for RE71Rs and good camber. They'll just get hot and be more peaky. Target 31/28 hot pressures for autocross. On the street I bump them to 31-32 cold all around to ensure even wear.

 

[WItoTX]

Old post bump, OP what did you come up with?

 

[G-HORCE]

I ended up at -3.0 front, zero toe, and -2.0 rear, .3° toe. Definitely made me faster, and is still reasonable on the street. In fact, it’s so reasonable I’m going to go to -3.5° this week. I wouldn’t do it with a daily driver though. My street use is now almost limited to driving to and from events. I do some 300 mile round trips - It’s done great on the highway and it’s not wearing the tires much.

 

[blacksheep-1]

3 degrees seem to be like aspirin for these cars as in..
"Take 3 degrees and call me after the race" it works wonders

 

[Scootsmcgreggor]

3 degrees seem to be like aspirin for these cars as in..
"Take 3 degrees and call me after the race" it works wonders

Hahahahahahahaa