S197 FTWMS #50 S197 NASA Super Touring Racecar Build Thread Profile - S197 Mustangs

[2012-Boss]

I stand corrected. I would then use the above with a CJ pump or an OEM pump with billet gears swapped in.

 

[captdistraction]

With the correct pickup it does. For 5.0L applications use M-6622-M50RR pickup tube.

5.0 COYOTE STYLE ROAD RACE OIL PUMP PICK UP TUBE

5.0 COYOTE STYLE ROAD RACE OIL PUMP PICK UP TUBE|Ford Performance Parts

performanceparts.ford.com

I'm looking at that tube, oddly its so different than the 5.2 tube, no partial directional blockoff on the screen - some rough mandrel bends. I thought about buying one and cutting/welding the two together to make a halfway workable tube

At that point why not grab a OEM GT500 tube and pump and modify that to work with the FP350S pan. Or sell it all and go buy an expensive dry sump to break some inexplicable way

 

[steveespo]

I'm looking at that tube, oddly its so different than the 5.2 tube, no partial directional blockoff on the screen - some rough mandrel bends. I thought about buying one and cutting/welding the two together to make a halfway workable tube

At that point why not grab a OEM GT500 tube and pump and modify that to work with the FP350S pan. Or sell it all and go buy an expensive dry sump to break some inexplicable way

we know the pain Chris. sorry, but just when things are going good.............

 

[honeybadger]

I'm looking at that tube, oddly its so different than the 5.2 tube, no partial directional blockoff on the screen - some rough mandrel bends. I thought about buying one and cutting/welding the two together to make a halfway workable tube

At that point why not grab a OEM GT500 tube and pump and modify that to work with the FP350S pan. Or sell it all and go buy an expensive dry sump to break some inexplicable way

Have you called Bill at Daley? I think he'd help settle a lot of fears for ya'. He's really knowledgeable and helpful (at least in my experience).

 

[captdistraction]

did he talk about any concerns around the passenger side drainback/windage issues? I know a couple guys spoke up about the dailey systems having some troubles there.

 

[captdistraction]

So the tube is ordered, along with a GT pump housing, a GT500 pump housing, and a GT500 pump tube (1" vs the 15/16" $200 FP350S junk). Hopefully between all of that I can come up with a solution that works.I'm also getting the crank scraper ordered, either way I'll use one of those on whatever I build.

As far as the hardware, not much good news: the block needs a .005" overbore or so - which means a custom piston (its already at 3.641"), unless I find a different piston. Mahle can make them for me, but is $1800 and 16 weeks out.

Otherwise can abandon the block (I might have it honed and sell it to someone who does want to mess with all of that). If I did that, likely would look at the 5.2L block, but I already have concerns about how sloppy ford is with tolerances since those cannot be honed on the bores. If I go that way, looks like you need a different crank (93mm vs 92.7mm)

The current race-prepped crank is to be magnafluxed, but the snout wear is an concern. The rest of it might polish up ok. Heads are still a question mark, but likely a valve job, guides, seals, springs plus whatever is needed on the cam bores. Cams can be polished, they're not that bad (I could just replace the exhaust cams since they're inexpensive and the intake cams look fine).

Looking at another used engine here soon, but its unknown, been on a stand for ages with a broken head. Its charity, so I can't turn my nose up, but the hope is I can hobble something together out of all of it to limp by while I figure out a longer term solution. I forget, but there was once something fun about this sport - I just don't remember exactly what, its been so long

I ended up making an album of all the pictures related to teardown - nothing curated but reference for me: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AlYNJ_4Or1Yc6pYX5WI2uBZgSySjaw?e=NihTJ0

 

[steveespo]

So the tube is ordered, along with a GT pump housing, a GT500 pump housing, and a GT500 pump tube (1" vs the 15/16" $200 FP350S junk). Hopefully between all of that I can come up with a solution that works.I'm also getting the crank scraper ordered, either way I'll use one of those on whatever I build.

As far as the hardware, not much good news: the block needs a .005" overbore or so - which means a custom piston (its already at 3.641"), unless I find a different piston. Mahle can make them for me, but is $1800 and 16 weeks out.

Otherwise can abandon the block (I might have it honed and sell it to someone who does want to mess with all of that). If I did that, likely would look at the 5.2L block, but I already have concerns about how sloppy ford is with tolerances since those cannot be honed on the bores. If I go that way, looks like you need a different crank (93mm vs 92.7mm)

The current race-prepped crank is to be magnafluxed, but the snout wear is an concern. The rest of it might polish up ok. Heads are still a question mark, but likely a valve job, guides, seals, springs plus whatever is needed on the cam bores. Cams can be polished, they're not that bad (I could just replace the exhaust cams since they're inexpensive and the intake cams look fine).

Looking at another used engine here soon, but its unknown, been on a stand for ages with a broken head. Its charity, so I can't turn my nose up, but the hope is I can hobble something together out of all of it to limp by while I figure out a longer term solution. I forget, but there was once something fun about this sport - I just don't remember exactly what, its been so long

I ended up making an album of all the pictures related to teardown - nothing curated but reference for me: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AlYNJ_4Or1Yc6pYX5WI2uBZgSySjaw?e=NihTJ0

Chris 5.2 Predator blocks can certainly be honed for ring fit. My builder Chris Holbrook did just that to custom fit the piston rings on my shortblock. As for overbore you cannot go beyond.005" but the blocks are relatively cheap, or they can be sleeved. With the likelihood of failure before being worn out, most blocks suffer some damage that warrants replacement anyway.

 

[captdistraction]

that's very good info, opens my options a bit. For those who hadn't followed, here's a screenshot of the first block's measurements (3.630+x) - there's definitely a block lottery and thus why I'm so fickle about these ford parts:


A Bummer to abandon this block since every drainback is smoothed and ported, every rough surface cleaned up and the oil ports are gasket matched to the outlet adapter; careful line honing and sweating every little detail. That said, what was done to one can be done to another

The common theme is outside the oil pump failure, everything had been wearing relatively nicely. The most wear had been in the tops and bottoms of the piston skirts where they started to show a bit of polishing from rocking slightly - a side effect of hard usage. Would be nice to get one of these to a point where its just a refresh, but very unlikely in this business.

 

[blacksheep-1]

I think some of you guys, especially those running dry sumps, should start to look at these...

On The Nose — ProCharger’s Fix For Coyote Crankshaft Snouts

Coyote crankshafts have been known to fail in high-power supercharged applications. To fix this, ProCharger has developed a Coyote crankshaft support.

www.enginelabs.com

 

[Swiss Boss]

So the tube is ordered, along with a GT pump housing, a GT500 pump housing, and a GT500 pump tube (1" vs the 15/16" $200 FP350S junk). Hopefully between all of that I can come up with a solution that works.I'm also getting the crank scraper ordered, either way I'll use one of those on whatever I build.

As far as the hardware, not much good news: the block needs a .005" overbore or so - which means a custom piston (its already at 3.641"), unless I find a different piston. Mahle can make them for me, but is $1800 and 16 weeks out.

Otherwise can abandon the block (I might have it honed and sell it to someone who does want to mess with all of that). If I did that, likely would look at the 5.2L block, but I already have concerns about how sloppy ford is with tolerances since those cannot be honed on the bores. If I go that way, looks like you need a different crank (93mm vs 92.7mm)

The current race-prepped crank is to be magnafluxed, but the snout wear is an concern. The rest of it might polish up ok. Heads are still a question mark, but likely a valve job, guides, seals, springs plus whatever is needed on the cam bores. Cams can be polished, they're not that bad (I could just replace the exhaust cams since they're inexpensive and the intake cams look fine).

Looking at another used engine here soon, but its unknown, been on a stand for ages with a broken head. Its charity, so I can't turn my nose up, but the hope is I can hobble something together out of all of it to limp by while I figure out a longer term solution. I forget, but there was once something fun about this sport - I just don't remember exactly what, its been so long

I ended up making an album of all the pictures related to teardown - nothing curated but reference for me: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AlYNJ_4Or1Yc6pYX5WI2uBZgSySjaw?e=NihTJ0

Looks like Diamond has a 3.650 piston off the shelves.

Diamond 11.5:1 Coyote 5.0 MOD 2K 8cc Dome Piston Set WITH RINGS

ModMax proudly offers the best 4.6 , 5.0 , & 5.4 Ford Modular engine parts in the world. From cranks, stroker kits, rods, and pistons to valvetrain and more!

www.modmaxracing.com

What about sleeving your current block?

 

[captdistraction]

I joked about it but giving real consideration - might be less expensive than the work on a new 5.2 block and could end up in the same place. Should hear more from the builder today. He went over the crankshaft last night and is looking over the block, heads (valves, valvesprings and guides) today.

 

[2012-Boss]

Chris,
Holbrook honed my 5.2 block with torque plates too. He also swapped the main bearings for a set of Clevite bearings that are slightly undersized for a little more main bearing clearance.

 

[captdistraction]

I finally pulled the video, here's the last lap (slow tires, roasted 3rd gear blocker rings and blown motor in all its glory):

Interestingly there's some weird audio artifacts right at the moment of pump failure - not sure if I just didn't hear it or if that's really audio of the pump eating itself. The other lesson learned is that the red light of death was wired up to the sensor post-accusump which also delayed reaction as the accusump fed pressure into the motor for a short time. It should have been off the pump feed (or both, easy logic to script out) to let me know sooner that there was zero pressure coming out.

 

[captdistraction]

Just, how?! * ** ***

* I know how, it could only happen with me though
** for the layman, that’s aluminum bits of oil pump melted into primary tensioner-side chain guide - as the oil pump shredded itself, inevitably the primary chain would carry some of this material upward since the timing sprocket is right there.
*** this sport can suck at times

Aside from that, some interesting chain guide wear - I know I’ve seen MMR units wear similarly, and the chain tensioner ratchet lock broke off on one side and was wearing on the other side, so something to keep in mind with any aluminum guides. I like the improved rigidity given I ran high spring rates for VCT and had no issues with timing accuracy.


I was able to try out my new toy, a parts washer (given my affinity for broken sh*t, surprised I went this long without one). Did a great job though the oil pan needs to go to an ultrasonic cleaner - I spent a couple hours scrubbing and still could get aluminum powder on a towel. Side note: taking apart cam phasers is less fun than it sounds.

 

[captdistraction]

Latest on my endeavors to further reach financial ruin:

Secondary Motor: I tore down the secondary motor as there was debris everywhere - the block unfortunately is also a 3.640" bore like my motor meaning that few options available to go. It did have diamond pistons, manley I-beam pro-series rods and a blend of clevite and king bearings. The crank looks good. The heads were a surprise - 37.5/31.7 Ferrea valves, Gen2 castings, CNC port work, bronze guides, some unknown PAC spring and titanium retainers. The guides are toast and it needs at least 8 intake valves, and despite having great looking cam caps, there are 3 caps on one head way out of spec, one with a detectable lip (mismatched cap? Its numbered correctly). I'll have them rebuilt. It also had a livernois billet oil pump gears set and gen2 timing, I picked up a gen1 timing kit to convert it back (and will need to get intake cams). This block doesn't have all the cleanup work my main one has, presumably we'll do all the drainback porting and such as needed. The roughcast these blocks have is shockingly bad.

Main motor: some good news finally as we revisted the boss cylinder head cam bores and clearances, and mine can just be cleaned up with some scotchbrite and be within spec. New set of oversize ferrea valves and bronze guides ordered (my boss valves are good, and may go on the market shortly). So a valve job, guide work and they'll be back in business. No decision yet on pistons, but whatever I do I'll do X2. Mahle is $1800/set with rings 12-16 weeks, Manley an unknown at this point (but may go down this path), Diamond and JE stock pistons in that size (though I've been warned off of each). MMR whitelabels some manleys and may have that size in stock. The crankshaft is TBD, I don't think it is that bad off (I have it listed for sale), but I might build one 5.0 and one 5.2 over time and swap them around.

Some Cam data that's hard to find elsewhere: (and note how there's very little room to work with given diameters of cams vs their bores - this can have a significant impact on oil pressure)
Cam Clearance Spec (bore to cam):
0.0015-0.0020" Gen I
0.0009-0.0030" Gen II

Stated Cam diameter:
1.1267" Ford
1.1255" L&M Cam and others

Specified Bore Diameter (all gens) - torqued caps to spec
1.1282-1.1292"

Another oddity is the oil pump gears - there's a lot of clearance on the snout of both cranks, and you can see where the pads of the seats on the inner gear hammer the crank. Both the builder and I were surprised, as you'd expect some gear clearance to allow for float/alignment, but not so much that you're hammering it all. Makes some sense given there's a lot of slop in the oil pump housing (and why rotunda has a tool specifically for this), also explains why most cranks have wear marks where the front lip of the housing is. Just a lot of slop in a part that's extremely critical.

https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYTgwZjBjZWJkNWNjNTI0NDFkNjdiYTE2NDgwNzhiZTQ3M2IxMDJjNSZjdD1n/dcrwHd29eEl6RvVRk6/giphy.gif

Finally on the oil side - picked up the M50RR tube for the FP350S pan - Its pretty sad for what it costs, will have to clean it up if I decide to use it. Ordered a GT500 pump and inlet to get an idea of what that looks like.

 

[captdistraction]

On both motors, I haven't decided which direction I'm going on oiling - dry sump or wet. I've talked to Boundary, L&M, FRPP, Aviad, MMR, MPR, Roush/Yates, AED and others to get feedback (and I'm trying to reach Dailey Engineering) and I'm no closer.

For what I spend on this stuff, a dry sump system isn't complete madness, I could piece together an Aviad with an aluminum pan, 3 gallon peterson tank, 4 stage pump and plumbing for about $4k. Others have done Dailey for about $6k. I'm about $3500 in wet sump development between the FP350S pan and work on it, the two pickups and work on them, the boundary pumps, block porting, accusump and all its mess, windage tray mods, etc. Seems like the bonuses of the dry sump (vacuum/HP, cleanup of aeration, consistent pump pressure, rebuildable without having to tear open the engine, etc) would be beneficial at the level of racing I do.

In talking with Ford Performance, they suggested that I remove the oil crossover links at the backs of the heads, install pressure sensors and monitor pressure + system pressure VS RPM and Gforce to get some data to drive decision making. the cylinder head galleys are designed to receive between 20-50PSI (and main engine pressure something between 65-110psi). More than 50PSI and you get pump up of the lash adjusters and issues there with valve closure, under 20PSI and you get a lot of Chris-Wynne-Bullshit(TM)

There's some outstanding questions about the drive mandrels (aviad goes out front, how is the damper retained, etc) and overall costs but I'm not sure which way I want to go. I can probably credit card my way through a dry sump, but with the costs of this sport rapidly rising, my approach involving redundant powertrains - I'm not sure how I'll actually afford to run this car once I get it sorted. Flipside, I cannot afford to keep breaking it, though 3 years on a powertrain is (barely) acceptable at this level of racing.

 

[ArizonaBOSS]

Not that I have the ability to measure it accurately either way, but question on the cam-to-cam-bore clearance notes above: Are those "two-sided" (diametrical) or "one sided" (radial) values?
Just more curiosity here, not sure if worth rabbit-holing to find out, if you don't already know.

 

[captdistraction]

Not that I have the ability to measure it accurately either way, but question on the cam-to-cam-bore clearance notes above: Are those "two-sided" (diametrical) or "one sided" (radial) values?
Just more curiosity here, not sure if worth rabbit-holing to find out, if you don't already know.

Radial - oddly. You'd expect there to be a difference in the vertical measurements vs 90*/horizontal, but those are both supposed to fall within that range (suggesting that they're bored with the bolts torqued and no adjustments given for the parting line). I guess to a degree it makes sense given the cam really just rides on the upper cap side.

 

[captdistraction]

More updates: refreshed the transmission successfully, shifts feel nice and crisp on the bench so hopefully that translates to good mechanical behavior once I have a motor.

Motors are still in progress - will meet with the builder this week. Did consult with Pauls Automotive Engineering/PAE (if you can't find them, they're likely standing on a NASA podium somewhere) and ended up moving forward on the Dailey Engineering dry sump system. It was a bit more affordable than I had anticipated, but still a massive spend (And jump up from say the Aviad). Either way this should eliminate a lot of the complexity I have in wet sump systems (with accusumps, plumbing, lots of challenges around keeping the oil where it needs to go). Mid August is the ETA there

They also helped me locate some Wiseco pistons in a 3.650" bore in 11.5:1 - its been a preferred piston of theirs and my typical mahle option is nearly twice as expensive with lead times of 16+ weeks. The bore is the limit before sleeving would have to happen, but I'll be happy to get one more round out of these blocks. I'll detail the refresh and build data in another thread. The pistons are already in flight to me, hats off to the PAE guys for stepping in to assist (I previously bought an aluminator short block from them after blowing up a motor ages ago)

Ultimately this likely means no racing until the fall, but I hope I'm making the right adjustments to be able to get back to racing with a more streamlined approach, and have the backup options should disaster strike again without having to take a year off. While we're building, I'm going to strip out the interior, re-wire everything, find a place to mount the dry-sump tank, find any weight I can remove along the way and simplify/clean the car up. Having added things over the years in piecemeal I want to come out of this process without any patchwork, just a simplified car that's focusing on just what's needed for racing. I still need to get the bodywork done, but I've yet to find an option where someone can look at it without a powertrain in it.

That being said, opening the floodgates on parts sales. I'll keep one wet sump setup in case I can hobble something together and get to testing, but there's so many parts now I just no longer have a need for.

 

[honeybadger]