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Going Square General Noob Questions...

What exactly is the point of going square?? If I understand things correctly, a stockish Boss will tend to understeer.

Going square, all other things being equal, would cause oversteer. Is this correct??

Some of the sway bar post I've been reading are talking about using 18-22mm rear sway bars or no sway bar at all. With a square set up, stockish ( ie: P, K, or T type springs) and smaller/no rear sway bar, wouldn't the car tend to understeer? If so, it brings us right back where we started from.

If this has been hashed already, sorry. I'm trying to wrap my little brain around this. Thanks.
 
Going to a square setup with stock suspension will cause oversteer. Think of it this way, you increase grip up front but not in the rear. Now the front sticks but the rear doesn't. Check out the sticky thread below if you haven't seen it.

https://trackmustangsonline.com/index.php?topic=7928.0
 

TMSBOSS

Spending my pension on car parts and track fees.
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An advantage is cost of tires. You can easily rotate tires from front to back and avoid wearing out the outsides of your front tires. At least that's the theory. Side to side also if the tires are symmetrical
 

JScheier

Too Hot for the Boss!
Your post is black & white. The solution is in the grey :)

What exactly is the point of going square?? If I understand things correctly, a stockish Boss will tend to under steer.

This is correct. A car that under steers is inherently safer from the factory than a car that over steers.

Going square, all other things being equal, would cause oversteer. Is this correct??

This is also correct.

Some of the sway bar post I've been reading are talking about using 18-22mm rear sway bars or no sway bar at all. With a square set up, stockish ( ie: P, K, or T type springs) and smaller/no rear sway bar, wouldn't the car tend to understeer? If so, it brings us right back where we started from.

What you've left out is the degree to which the rear spring rate is being reduced. In the first example, the car is OEM setup except that the wheels / tires have been modified to a square setup. In this setup, the car will have a tendency to over steer.

To remove over steer, one can a) increase front rates or b) reduce rear rates. By moving from an OEM style rear sway bar to a smaller <or> non-existent bar, you have reduced the rear rate by 'x' amount and thus reduced the tendency to over steer by that same 'x' amount.

It's all in finding that magic balance that is good for YOU. A perfectly setup car in my eyes may scare the turdlettes out of other drivers because it is too loose (over steer). I have a friend that was amazingly fast in a third gen Camaro. My car broke and he let me co-drive his car. The car was so loose that I nearly spun it at the starting line (auto-x). That's how he liked his car... throw and catch... took me about three runs to get used to it... and it was fast... just had to be on your toes ALL the time.
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
2012Boss302 said:
If this has been hashed already, sorry. I'm trying to wrap my little brain around this.

You're already covered with all the correct answers above. Now how many mustang forums can you ask a question and get consistent, correct, and polite answers without *somebody* telling you to use the search function? Another perfect example of why I hang out here. Don't worry about asking questions!
 
Grant 302 said:
You're already covered with all the correct answers above. Now how many mustang forums can you ask a question and get consistent, correct, and polite answers without *somebody* telling you to use the search function? Another perfect example of why I hang out here. Don't worry about asking questions!

I agree, thanks for the help.

I should have been more clear on my setup, it's in my signature. "P" springs, stock Boss struts and shocks, stock sway bars, BMR UCA & LCA w/relocation brackets (using the middle hole).

I'm still new at driving the car the way it should be, I've been to 3 HPDE events with maybe 65-70 laps. It feels as if the car wants to push on entry. I may be too fast/too late on the brakes.

If I go square, mainly for the sake of rotation, I don't want to cause a new more expensive set of problems.

Just me thinking out loud. Again thanks for not slamming me, that also is why I love this site....
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
Your setup is very close to my GT, but with the 24mm rear bar, CC plates and Traction Lok diff. I normally run square and I feel everything is pretty well balanced. My 'rain' tires are staggered 265/295 PSS and it definitely pushes on those.

It's my guess that on my car, the swap to a 25mm rear bar could make my setup oversteer a bit on square tires. If you run square you might be fine with damper or LCA adjustments. But if you can't dial oversteer out, your biggest risk might be needing/wanting to go to a smaller rear bar.
 
Grant 302 said:
You're already covered with all the correct answers above. Now how many mustang forums can you ask a question and get consistent, correct, and polite answers without *somebody* telling you to use the search function? Another perfect example of why I hang out here. Don't worry about asking questions!

Haha! Stay away from S197forum!
 

steveespo

Lord knows I'm a Voodoo Child
Moderator
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Grant 302 said:
:) Well, there are some guys worth listening to in the handling section. Sam, Norm and Jason just to name a few...
There are alot of good folks to listen to on S197, but the atmosphere is too combative sometimes. They clean up their forum a little less tactfully than the Mods here do.

Steve
 
S197forum is great for tech info. I love that site. I'm on there all the time. But the tolerance level is quite low for noobs. BMO seems to have a much "friendlier" vibe, at least that is what I get from the short time I have been here. Both are great forums.
 
TGR96 said:
S197forum is great for tech info. I love that site. I'm on there all the time. But the tolerance level is quite low for noobs. BMO seems to have a much "friendlier" vibe, at least that is what I get from the short time I have been here. Both are great forums.
Thanks, nothing wrong with S197forum and I've chatted with the owners a few times. Good guys. Issues arise when forums get really large and it becomes difficult to manage. We continue to keep a lid on that as we gain more members.
 
TGR96 said:
S197forum is great for tech info. I love that site. I'm on there all the time. But the tolerance level is quite low for noobs. BMO seems to have a much "friendlier" vibe, at least that is what I get from the short time I have been here. Both are great forums.

I think it's mostly because everyone's mature at this site... and some are really old hehe :eek:
 
Well all this talk about being nice to noobs means i guess it's time to stop being a lurker and ask some questions haha ...

So back to the topic at hand, i spend a good deal of time browsing this forum because my GF and i have recently become more involved in track days, sadly ... neither of us are in a BOSS. I have a '13 5.0, and she has a '14 v6, and the cars are set up pretty similarly, and both running square set ups.
I want to focus more on how i have her car set up now because, not to sound cocky but, if i get in an "oh shiznit moment" i think i'd handle it a little better than her lol...

Shes got a v6 like i said, running my stock GT rims ( 18 x 8 ) with a nitto Nt01 tire on them, so should be enough tire for her stock HP and stock weight car. That being said, is it still safe to assume our cars will (should) understeer from the factory, even though our set ups arent staggered like a boss? Even the track pack GT and V6 (hers is a base model) still run a square set up, so i'm assuming the reason they run a thicker bar in the rear is to induce that understeer? I have her set up on her stock RSB right now, but also have a thicker GT500 bar i could throw on there as well... I Imagine we would rather flirt with the line of neutral / understeer as opposed to the line between oversteer / neutral.

This will only be our second weekend event this weekend, so we're still trying to learn the way these cars drive, but i just want to do my best to have her car set up so shes able to go out there and have fun (safely). Its a lot of money, so the last thing i need is to be broke AND have a temperamental girlfriend haha(we live together, cant get away!). Thanks guys.
 
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Phoenix has a nationally competitive t2 car that's a v6..might be a good idea to ask them, I'll try to look it over this week at the runoffs.
 
Thank you sir. Eventually we have illusions of grandeur for her car (still not decided on what i want to do with mine), Watts link, big tires, brembos... one step at a time though haha, right now we're just looking to get it around the track in 1 piece at a decent pace.
 

Grant 302

basic and well known psychic
Haha...not the best hobby if you don't want to be broke.

The GT500 bar might be perfect...managing tire pressure might keep you out of slight oversteer. IIRC, it's a 24mm? Worst case IMO is that you'd then want to upgrade the front bar too, if you can't make it work with tire pressures.

You didn't ask for other suggestions, but I'd try to get a whole GT or GT track pack strut/shock, spring, and sway setup. I've seen full take off sets for cheap on SVTP. Make your own V6 performance pack...
 

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