Panhard bar relocation discussion

[Grant 302]

Plenty of documentation out there. I suggest anyone interested to look it up for yourself.

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kb.fmiracing.com

"In a turn, a car transfers weight from the inside of the car to the outside of the car due to centrifugal force. That means more weight moves from the left side to the right side in a turn. When the rear axle is moved to the right, more weight is moved to the left of the centerline. This allows more weight to transfer during cornering (more body roll)."

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View attachment 15167

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Your first example is circle track specific info about shifting the axle laterally. I don’t see how this applies here.

Your second example is only taking about lowering the CG. That’s not the same as lowering only the Roll Center.

The text caption in the Engineering Explained is wrong. And I believe he’s just making the same mistake, at the very least with regard to panhard bar relocation.

 

[Fabman]

Your first example is circle track specific info about shifting the axle laterally. I don’t see how this applies here.

Your second example is only taking about lowering the CG. That’s not the same as lowering only the Roll Center.

The text caption in the Engineering Explained is wrong. And I believe he’s just making the same mistake, at the very least with regard to panhard bar relocation.

Right, as usual, everybody is wrong but you. Got it.
As I said, those who are interested look it up for yourself. Plenty of information out there from people who know.

 

[Grant 302]

Right, as usual, everybody is wrong but you. Got it.
As I said, those who are interested look it up for yourself. Plenty of information out there from people who know.

You’re making this personal.

This is what Kenny Brown claims:

 

[Fabman]

You’re making this personal.

This is what Kenny Brown claims:

I have only heard two people in my 30+ years of racing claim that, you and Kenny Brown.
Virtually EVERY other source as well as my personal racing experience suggests otherwise.
I suggest you look it up.

Plenty of information out there.

On and on and on....


Look it up.

 

[Fabman]

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[Grant 302]

When I first saw his video years ago, I doubted him too.

I’m not sure he’s explaining it very well either.

But mechanically, if the CG height, spring rate and sway bar rate stays the same, there shouldn’t be more roll. But as I’m suggesting, the transfer will happen faster. And again, that’s just for the panhard setup. For other arm arrangements like at the front, roll center changes occur with geometry changes so the two can’t be isolated easily.

 

[Fabman]

When I first saw his video years ago, I doubted him too.

I’m not sure he’s explaining it very well either.

But mechanically, if the CG height, spring rate and sway bar rate stays the same, there shouldn’t be more roll. But as I’m suggesting, the transfer will happen faster. And again, that’s just for the panhard setup. For other arm arrangements like at the front, roll center changes occur with geometry changes so the two can’t be isolated easily.

The statement "Lower roll centers increase body roll" is true and correct regardless of the linkage or location on the car. Its basic and well known psychics. But at this point I give up. Explaining it is hopeless. Look it up for yourself.

 

[Grant 302]

I give up.

I just wanted to discuss with Norm, but thanks for the reminder.

 

[captdistraction]

I'm on the opposite side of this as well, but as a driver preference and not a engineering whitepaper study. With my chassis mount watts setup, I've run three setups:

Low roll center - no bar (watts lowest setting, about 3" down from the panhard)
Low roll center - 25mm bar (and swept through its positions)
high roll center - 18mm bar (watt's highest setting, about 3" up)

My preference is the high roll center and 18mm bar combo. The low roll center and no bar configuration had just too much roll and some resultant push. It did feel hooked up on corner exit, but entry and mid corner speed suffered as it pushed and took a little longer to "set" (perceived) than I'd like. Adding a bar back helped it rotate better, however the stability under throttle post-apex was lost and the combo while feeling better was ultimately even slower.

Moving the RC up and going to the smallest bar I had has worked best for me. The car rotates well, moderately ok mid corner stability, and its definitely loose on exit but I'm able to lay down power and overall the oversteer is very predictable and controllable. It is more responsive, IMHO

(before I'm systematically picked apart by the moderators and engineers in here, this is anecdotal experience based on the development of my race car. I don't have a ton of back to back data from same day sweeps and have little interest in changing the setup for the sake of validating tests for this discussion - just going off what the driver liked and what minimized my laptimes). The low roll center setup was recommended by the BMR chassis guys, and then they recommended the high setting to try next after my feedback.

 

[Grant 302]

I'm on the opposite side of this as well, but as a driver preference and not a engineering whitepaper study. With my chassis mount watts setup, I've run three setups:

Low roll center - no bar (watts lowest setting, about 3" down from the panhard)
Low roll center - 25mm bar (and swept through its positions)
high roll center - 18mm bar (watt's highest setting, about 3" up)

My preference is the high roll center and 18mm bar combo. The low roll center and no bar configuration had just too much roll and some resultant push. It did feel hooked up on corner exit, but entry and mid corner speed suffered as it pushed and took a little longer to "set" (perceived) than I'd like. Adding a bar back helped it rotate better, however the stability under throttle post-apex was lost and the combo while feeling better was ultimately even slower.

Moving the RC up and going to the smallest bar I had has worked best for me. The car rotates well, moderately ok mid corner stability, and its definitely loose on exit but I'm able to lay down power and overall the oversteer is very predictable and controllable. It is more responsive, IMHO

(before I'm systematically picked apart by the moderators and engineers in here, this is anecdotal experience based on the development of my race car. I don't have a ton of back to back data from same day sweeps and have little interest in changing the setup for the sake of validating tests for this discussion - just going off what the driver liked and what minimized my laptimes). The low roll center setup was recommended by the BMR chassis guys, and then they recommended the high setting to try next after my feedback.

That’s nice Chris, but not a panhard bar. It’s not the same on so many levels...especially with the chassis side mount that migrates.

 

[Ludachris]

(before I'm systematically picked apart by the moderators ...)

The moderators aren’t going to pick you apart, not to worry. If some people disagree with each other’s theories, that’s fine. Debates are healthy, but it’s also perfectly okay to agree to disagree. And in extreme cases where you simply don’t get along with another member here, you can always click on that member’s name and click Ignore.

 

[Grant 302]

The statement "Lower roll centers increase body roll" is true and correct regardless of the linkage or location on the car. Its basic and well known psychics. But at this point I give up. Explaining it is hopeless. Look it up for yourself.

What’s with the ninja edits?

Like I said, with the CG at the same height, same springs and bar, how does it roll more?

And aside from me and Kenny, I think the other users in this thread might feel the same...or at least that it works as advertised.

 

[Grant 302]

Its basic and well known psychics.

Can anyone fault me for laughing a bit here?

 

[TMSBOSS]

Let's see. You scolded a member for abbreviating another's log in. Then you called out another for disagreeing with you. Go ahead and laugh, although you may be the only one.

 

[Grant 302]

Let's see. You scolded a member for abbreviating another's log in. Then you called out another for disagreeing with you. Go ahead and laugh, although you may be the only one.

I should have told Bill earlier. It wasn’t right when it started. Still isn’t right now.

Who did I call out? Just wanted Norm’s opionion on this.

 

[captdistraction]

That’s nice Chris, but not a panhard bar. It’s not the same on so many levels...especially with the chassis side mount that migrates.

Good to see my last comment rang so true.

 

[Fabman]

What’s with the ninja edits?

Like I said, with the CG at the same height, same springs and bar, how does it roll more?

And aside from me and Kenny, I think the other users in this thread might feel the same...or at least that it works as advertised.

go back and read my initial explanation and repeat until it sinks in. Then go research it and you'll see, pretty much every one else knows it too.

 

[Grant 302]

Good to see my last comment rang so true.

Good examples Chris, but for another thread.

For the record, I’m glad you can speak your mind. It better than hiding behind a thin veil of civility.

 

[Fabman]

Good examples Chris, but for another thread.

For the record, I’m glad you can speak your mind. It better than hiding behind a thin veil of civility.

You have a way of wearing me out....I can't believe the crazy things you think and how you completely deny, disregard or discredit any evidence that disagrees with you. This is not the first time around as you know. You've done this same thing to me multiple times and also other readers....its offensive. Its like arguing with a drunk....no new information gets into your head.

 

[Grant 302]

go back and read my initial explanation and repeat until it sinks in. Then go research it and you'll see, pretty much every one else knows it too.

So you’re never really done when you say you are. Can’t say I expected that to change.

But I ran some calcs and examples last night. Part, I’m pretty sure you’ll continue to disagree with and part that prove you right.