S650 Dark Horse build team,leaving notes

[mavisky]

This is the best stopping car in the world you know that right ? 60-0 in 86 ft it stops faster than a Turbo S. The Dark Horse is actually very capable out of the showroom floor at least judging by the few track tests that Terry Fair is doing with his car. Overall it's impressive besides the digital displays (though if they can show tire pressures and CHT at the same time it will be magic) and price tag as 70k+ for a Mustang that is not a GT500 sounds like a lot of money.

In one test...and the car is wearing 100 treadwear tires in that test. The brakes are smaller than the GT350 and the car weighs more. The only thing that will improve the braking are suspension tuning, abs tuning, and the tires. Those three have improved, but I'd be interested in seeing how fast a GT350/GT350R would stop on those same tires.

Motor Trend's Dark Horse test seems highly suspect. Compare their figures to Car and Drivers figures among the various Mustangs. Dark horse goes from 2nd best Mustang despite having much stickier tires to suddenly stopping better than any car ever tested by over 10 feet.

Same could be said about the GT4RS in Car and Driver's test where it stops 12 feet faster than a Z06, but 1 foot longer from 60 with Motor Trend.

Car and Driver GT500 CFTP - 70-0 - 150 ft
Car and Driver GT350R - 70-0 - 146 ft
Car and Driver C8 Z06 - 70-0 - 144 ft
Car and Driver Dark Horse - 70-0 - 142 ft
Car and Driver Mach 1 HP- 70-0 - 141 ft
Car and Driver GT4RS - 70-0 - 132 ft

Motor Trend GT350R - 60-0 - 97 ft
Motor Trend Mach 1 HP - 60-0 - 96 ft
Motor Trend GT4RS - 60-0 - 96 ft
Motor Trend C8 Z06 - 60-0 - 95 ft
Motor Trend GT500 CFPT - 60-0 - 94 ft
Motor Trend Dark Horse - 60-0 - 86 ft

 

[bnight]

In one test...and the car is wearing 100 treadwear tires in that test. The brakes are smaller than the GT350 and the car weighs more. The only thing that will improve the braking are suspension tuning, abs tuning, and the tires. Those three have improved, but I'd be interested in seeing how fast a GT350/GT350R would stop on those same tires.

Motor Trend's Dark Horse test seems highly suspect. Compare their figures to Car and Drivers figures among the various Mustangs. Dark horse goes from 2nd best Mustang despite having much stickier tires to suddenly stopping better than any car ever tested by over 10 feet.

Same could be said about the GT4RS in Car and Driver's test where it stops 12 feet faster than a Z06, but 1 foot longer from 60 with Motor Trend.

Car and Driver GT500 CFTP - 70-0 - 150 ft
Car and Driver GT350R - 70-0 - 146 ft
Car and Driver C8 Z06 - 70-0 - 144 ft
Car and Driver Dark Horse - 70-0 - 142 ft
Car and Driver Mach 1 HP- 70-0 - 141 ft
Car and Driver GT4RS - 70-0 - 132 ft

Motor Trend GT350R - 60-0 - 97 ft
Motor Trend Mach 1 HP - 60-0 - 96 ft
Motor Trend GT4RS - 60-0 - 96 ft
Motor Trend C8 Z06 - 60-0 - 95 ft
Motor Trend GT500 CFPT - 60-0 - 94 ft
Motor Trend Dark Horse - 60-0 - 86 ft

Car and Driver did a 0 - 150 - 0 test here:

It's interesting data.

 

[mavisky]

The Z06 has never really impressed me with Braking. Not sure what Chevrolet got wrong, but even in the tests I shared you can see that despite it's lighter weight and massive carbon ceramic brakes, it stops about as good as any of the recent performance Mustangs.

The 911 Turbo is on 300 treadwear Pirelli Pzero PZ4's so put it on a good tire and it shoudl absolutely do better.

 

[misterpeanut]

I can't for the life of me understand why these guys don't test cars with control tires and wheels.

 

[mavisky]

I can't for the life of me understand why these guys don't test cars with control tires and wheels.

Because the manufacturers will claim that their suspension was only designed for the tires on the car and wouldn't let you test them on non-oe spec tires if they're providing the car. You'd have to get the cars from owners.

 

[misterpeanut]

Good point, I forget these are all factory loaner cars. Well one day when I win the lottery, I'm gonna buy a bunch of cars and......

 

[bnight]

The Z06 has never really impressed me with Braking. Not sure what Chevrolet got wrong, but even in the tests I shared you can see that despite it's lighter weight and massive carbon ceramic brakes, it stops about as good as any of the recent performance Mustangs.

The 911 Turbo is on 300 treadwear Pirelli Pzero PZ4's so put it on a good tire and it shoudl absolutely do better.

I do agree that comparing PZ4's vs Trofeo RS is pointless and that a Porsche knows how to brake. However based on tests there is no data that Trofeo RS is actually faster than Cup 2 also TW is not a great metric because every manufacturer has it's own understanding on how to rate that. For example 100TW AR-1 is slower than 200TW Yoko A052.

 

[mavisky]

Realized I was confusing the new 180 treadwear Trofeo RS that Ford has had them put onto the Dark Horse to the 60 treadwear Trofeo R that comes as optional as the SVJ.

I do agree on your point that treadwear rating isn't the be all to end all, but I think most cases of 180 treadwear tires are going to be markedly stickier than 300 treadwear.

Ford has been guilty of confusing tire compounds like the way they did with the difference between the compound they used for GT350R Cup 2 tires vs the compound they used on 2019-2020 GT350's that moved to "Cup 2's" instead of Pilot Super Sports. Despite having both wear the same Cup 2 name, the two compounds were specific to the different tire sizes.

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/pilot-sport-cup-2-differences-r-pp2-vs-gt350.135206/

 

[bnight]

Realized I was confusing the new 180 treadwear Trofeo RS that Ford has had them put onto the Dark Horse to the 60 treadwear Trofeo R that comes as optional as the SVJ.

I do agree on your point that treadwear rating isn't the be all to end all, but I think most cases of 180 treadwear tires are going to be markedly stickier than 300 treadwear.

Ford has been guilty of confusing tire compounds like the way they did with the difference between the compound they used for GT350R Cup 2 tires vs the compound they used on 2019-2020 GT350's that moved to "Cup 2's" instead of Pilot Super Sports. Despite having both wear the same Cup 2 name, the two compounds were specific to the different tire sizes.

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/pilot-sport-cup-2-differences-r-pp2-vs-gt350.135206/

Which is why besides Treadwear the tires also have designation for manufacture:

Here is an article from Billy Johnson (Mustang Development Driver) who explains the Cup 2's:

Not all Michelin Cup 2 Tires Are Created The Same - MotoIQ

They may look the same, smell the same, and be the exact same size; but not all Cup 2 tires are created equal, and for good reason. Michelin produces off-the-shelf…

motoiq.com

Hope this helps. My point is that based on the figures the Dark Horse breaks impressive here is a video break down on why:

 

[Bill Pemberton]

Interesting video and thanks for posting. This discusses what I and others have tried to express over and over to new drivers ( to autocross or road courses ) , tires are your number one mod. This is not just for handling, it assists both braking and initial acceleration .

Tire compounding happens all the times with all the Manufacturers so no surprise that a tire with the same name is more aggressive or quicker just a year later. I actually ran a Yokohama in the late 80s with a tire compound that I found out was the middle softness sent to the Solo Nationals --- yes , same name , but there were three compounds on tires folks were running even that long ago. Of course Yokohama disavowed there was any difference.

 

[Tonymustang302]

I really hate the carbon fiber rims on the dh

 

[Dave_W]

Enginerring Explained video: "Physics doesn't care how much money you have. You can't just throw money at the problem and expect to win."

Every race team ever: "Talk to our accountants."

Me: "But what if I spend that money on tires?"

 

[byronj]

And that's just one of the many reasons I bought the 23 Mach 1 instead of waiting for this new car.
I also find the Dark Horse name a bit goofy. Well, actually a lot goofy. What the hell is a Dark Horse anyway?

Not only in Horse racing but in any kind of race. ”Dark Horse” is an unexpected winner.

 

[mavisky]

I really hate the carbon fiber rims on the dh

Agreed the design is absolutely terrible. Looks like a box fan from the 80's, but even worse.