S197 Street vs track camber

[Tim.ocon]

Looking into the idea of setting my camber before and after track days instead of the set it and forget it system I’ve going with now to hopefully reduce camber wear on street tires. If doing so is as easy as I’m hoping I will probably be buying vorshlag plates

My idea is if I set the camber at max negative camber with 0 toe (track setup) then when in bring the plates back to minimum camber (street setup) it would add toe

this whole plan fall apart if adding positive camber adds toe out…

I’m thinking a small amount of toe in for the street will be fine.

 

[Mad Hatter]

When I was racing in a TW200 category I would run with -2.5 camber and zero toe and use the car in the street all the time with the same setup. Was fine with a symmetric tire as you could flip them. Tires would wear out from track use and heat cycles long before the camber effected them. NOT having camber over -2 would kill a set of tires in a track day.

It was just too time consuming to set it up at the track and easy to make a mistake. Not worth it in my opinion. For reference, using Dunlop Direzza 2 tires, they would last 8 track days with decent times and two more but at least a second slower.

 

[mwjscn]

Is it feasible to mark the tie rods or just remember how many turns you need to rotate them when resetting the alignment?

 

[Tim.ocon]

When I was racing in a TW200 category I would run with -2.5 camber and zero toe and use the car in the street all the time with the same setup. Was fine with a symmetric tire as you could flip them. Tires would wear out from track use and heat cycles long before the camber effected them. NOT having camber over -2 would kill a set of tires in a track day.

It was just too time consuming to set it up at the track and easy to make a mistake. Not worth it in my opinion. For reference, using Dunlop Direzza 2 tires, they would last 8 track days with decent times and two more but at least a second slower.

I daily drive my car which is my issue. This could be an overall alignment issue that is causing the issue aswell I just haven’t figured out the correct alignment to match with my springs

also had staggered tires which mean I couldn’t really rotate them. The next set are going to be square so maybe just that will be enough to offset it

 

[Tim.ocon]

Is it feasible to mark the tie rods or just remember how many turns you need to rotate them when resetting the alignment?

I’m sure it would be doable but I am hoping to be able to just adjust the camber plates and be good to go without screwing with tie rod adjustment

 

[stevbd]

I've been doing this for years and it works great. Takes 5 minutes, the most time consuming part is getting the front wheels in the air. As explained to me by Vorshlag, set the camber plates in the most upright position and get the car aligned with zero toe. This is your street setting. When you get to the track slide the plates to max negative and that will create a toe out condition which helps with turn in. When I asked them how much neg camber for track they said, "all of it." Which is funny but true, it's really hard to have too much. It comes out to about -3.5 degrees negative camber if you aren't cutting the strut towers. I haven't measured the toe out but it all just works, buh bye understeer.

Pro tip, when you are at the track adjusting the cc plates make sure you have both front wheels in the air at the same time or else the sway bar can make it difficult to move the plate.

 

[RodS197]

@stevbd is right on. I used to do this with my 2006 street/track car.

 

[blacksheep-1]

They pretty much nailed it, but I would recomend running all the caster you can get as well.

 

[Tim.ocon]

They pretty much nailed it, but I would recomend running all the caster you can get as well

Is that for street driving or track driving. Or both

why is more caster better?

 

[DaveW]

Is that for street driving or track driving. Or both

why is more caster better?

Both. It is not a tire wearing angle anyway. More is better because it is essentially bringing more negative camber when turning (in very simplified terms) and a strut car is always lacking in this department.

BAsed on my experience of aligning about 200-250 cars per year, most with some sort of performance mods, I am not a huge fan of moving plates around. The vorshlag method is the best if you insist, but that also depends a lot on the car being equal on both sides at those settings. Otherwise, the plate movement is not a terribly repeatable adjustment, and if you miss, it's going to leave toe out which will kill tires quicker than even 4 degrees of camber.

If you must have a dual use setup, I would have your alignment guy paint lines on the tie rods at the street setup (toe in to offset camber) and figure out how much toe out is added per 1/4 turn and move that back and forth. It's going to be less than one turn change on most cars and in my experience, this adjustment is 100% repeatable.

DaveW

 

[Tim.ocon]

Both. It is not a tire wearing angle anyway. More is better because it is essentially bringing more negative camber when turning (in very simplified terms) and a strut car is always lacking in this department.

BAsed on my experience of aligning about 200-250 cars per year, most with some sort of performance mods, I am not a huge fan of moving plates around. The vorshlag method is the best if you insist, but that also depends a lot on the car being equal on both sides at those settings. Otherwise, the plate movement is not a terribly repeatable adjustment, and if you miss, it's going to leave toe out which will kill tires quicker than even 4 degrees of camber.

If you must have a dual use setup, I would have your alignment guy paint lines on the tie rods at the street setup (toe in to offset camber) and figure out how much toe out is added per 1/4 turn and move that back and forth. It's going to be less than one turn change on most cars and in my experience, this adjustment is 100% repeatable.

DaveW

Paint lines on the the tie rods seems like a good idea regardless. Definitely can’t hurt

 

[Mike_FL]

I drove down to Steeda for an alignment (I wasn’t happy with how a local shop set up my watts link and adjustable lca’s) and I went there thinking I would get a street set up and then move the camber plates at the track for a track set up
They definitely persuaded me to get a set once and forget alignment
The reasons were the same as Dave stated above.

 

[Tim.ocon]

I drove down to Steeda for an alignment (I wasn’t happy with how a local shop set up my watts link and adjustable lca’s) and I went there thinking I would get a street set up and then move the camber plates at the track for a track set up
They definitely persuaded me to get a set once and forget alignment
The reasons were the same as Dave stated above.

I’m not to sure of where around me would be able to even do a track alignment. I’ll have to do some looking

 

[KazarS197]

This is my setup. Track - 3.0 , - 0.12 toe . Street -1.2 , + 0.06. Vorshlags with no cutting. I did the change from street to track and back on once and just kept the track setting since I do not do many street miles. I had the shop set the track setting then pull back to a reasonable street setting. Once home I marked with a paint marker on the street setting. Disregard the 2 drill holes. I was stupid and was going to set a stop for the street setting but can't do due to the elliptical movement of the upper bolt.

 

[stevbd]

Interesting. I agree that toe out on the street will quickly kill tires on the inside shoulder. But in my experience on track, even with all the negative camber I can get and the resulting toe out, the struggle is to keep the outside shoulder from wearing first. I guess I don't see the problem with toe out on track?

However it works, I will say that when I added the cc plates and started using the "Vorshlag method" my tires lasted a lot longer on track and still wear properly (evenly) on the street.

 

[Tim.ocon]

Interesting. I agree that toe out on the street will quickly kill tires on the inside shoulder. But in my experience on track, even with all the negative camber I can get and the resulting toe out, the struggle is to keep the outside shoulder from wearing first. I guess I don't see the problem with toe out on track?

However it works, I will say that when I added the cc plates and started using the "Vorshlag method" my tires lasted a lot longer on track and still wear properly (evenly) on the street.

I’m assuming the vorshlag method is changing the camber for street vs track driving?

 

[stevbd]

I'm sorry, yes what I described above.