the Blacksheep lo buck, one person toe gauge

[blacksheep-1]

I like to keep an eye on the toe settings at the track because they are the most easily disturbed of all suspension adjustments. The problem has always been, when you're by yourself , how do you get an accurate measurement? Well fear not, I have the answer.

Went to the hardware store and bought a 1/2 inch metal tube, a 3/8 metal rod, a 5/15 nut and a thumb screw. Make sure the metal is non coated so it's easy to weld, and the nut stainless for the same reason.



Drill a hole in the metal tube to accommodate the thumb screw



Weld the nut to the tube, only a tack weld is necessary (it also helps to remember to turn on the nitrogen)



slide the rod into the tube after deburring the tube and running a tap through the nut



and you're done




How does this work you ask? simple, with the car on the ground you slide the tool under the car against the bulge in the tire (or wheel rim or whatever you can access) at the back of the tire, tighten the thumb screw, put a tape measure on it. Now do the same at the front of the tire, put a tape on it and the difference is your toe in /toe out. If you can get under the car (supporting the suspension at the end points to simulate actual load) you do the same thing, you can actually visualize the difference based on rod length.

 

[VoodooBoss]

Nice, how long do you make the rods? Also, I'm kinda slow on stuff like this, how do I do this on the front of the car when I have -2.5 degrees camber? The top of my tires are well within the front fender.

 

[blacksheep-1]

the rods were 48 inches in length but you can cut to fit your application. You need a straight shot across the bottom of the frame to the tire, you can sneak this through by going through the wheel well in front of the tire and then do the same for the rear, the brake ducts may be an issue but it can be done. In that case you'll probably need 2 people, but it's far better than trying to hold a tape. The camber matters not, you are checking the toe, the tool is just leaning on the side of my car for the pic.

 

[DGRacing]

I use the longacre toe plates and metal tape measure. works great but kinda does require another person.

Nice DIY kit though Rob.

And let me tell you, I tried running 1 degree toe out on my car at the advice of many a race book. DO NOT EVER DO THIS! Car was undriveable. Wouldn't turn. Almost drove off the track on the warm up lap going 60mph. It was insane. Corrected it in the paddock. Back to burning rubber. YMMV

 

[Swede]

And let me tell you, I tried running 1 degree toe out on my car at the advice of many a race book. DO NOT EVER DO THIS! Car was undriveable. Wouldn't turn. Almost drove off the track on the warm up lap going 60mph. It was insane. Corrected it in the paddock. Back to burning rubber. YMMV

This got me thinking...
DG#56, I don't claim to be anywhere near your track experience, but I have been running more toe out than that without a problem. Turns in like a snake on speed Albeit on street tires and stock dimensions. I am installing CC plates and was planning to ask for 1 degree toe out from the alignment shop. MPSS tires and stock dimensions. Maybe I should reconsider and try a more neutral front alignment...? ???

/Swede

 

[DGRacing]

This got me thinking...
DG#56, I don't claim to be anywhere near your track experience, but I have been running more toe out than that without a problem. Turns in like a snake on speed Albeit on street tires and stock dimensions. I am installing CC plates and was planning to ask for 1 degree toe out from the alignment shop. MPSS tires and stock dimensions. Maybe I should reconsider and try a more neutral front alignment...? ???

/Swede

Not sure. Maybe it's something very sensitive to other setup properties. Didn't work for my car. Will have to think more as to why.

 

[VoodooBoss]

I'm not sure how this translates into degrees but I recently had my alignment setup with my new CorteX JRI dampers, watts link and other pieces with a total of -1/8".

 

[Swede]

I'm not sure how this translates into degrees but I recently had my alignment setup with my new CorteX JRI dampers, watts link and other pieces with a total of -1/8".

Not much.. about -0.13 deg

 

[Swede]

Not sure. Maybe it's something very sensitive to other setup properties. Didn't work for my car. Will have to think more as to why.

My bad, I went back to my notes and I have been running -0,4 degrees at the most. Sry. -1 deg is a lot when it comes to toe.

 

[VoodooBoss]

Not much.. about -0.13 deg

That's good. I actually wanted the stock toe as I drive mine on the street and my understanding is toe out will wear tires faster than negative camber.

 

[blacksheep-1]

There was a video on here where Preston bent his tie rod at Laguna Seca in a turn 1 incident, later (and he was on the radio saying the car was hard to drive) when he jumped out of the gas (or hit the brakes) the car darted immediately left into another car then immediately right off the track. This was a classic example of too much toe in, it makes the car very "darty" toe out on the other hand makes that a lot slower. In kart racing we used to add toe out to drivers who came from cars in order to slow the karts reaction to steering input down. Then after they got used to it, go to zero or a toe in of (what we called 1 flat)1/5 th turn on the tie rod end.

)

 

[Swede]

This was a classic example of too much toe in, it makes the car very "darty" toe out on the other hand makes that a lot slower.

All theory tells me it's the other way around.. Front wheel Toe out will give faster turn in at the cost of straight line stability. Toe in does the opposite.

There are some discussions about it here on BMO. [emoji4]

Also, Wikipedia http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toe_%28automotive%29

Please align (killing myself [emoji12] ) me if I got it wrong.

Anyway, thanks for the tip with the alignment rod. Good idea!!! [emoji4]

/Swede

 

[DGRacing]

All theory tells me it's the other way around.. Front wheel Toe out will give faster turn in at the cost of straight line stability. Toe in does the opposite.

There are some discussions about it here on BMO. [emoji4]

Also, Wikipedia http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toe_%28automotive%29

Please align (killing myself [emoji12] ) me if I got it wrong.

Anyway, thanks for the tip with the alignment rod. Good idea!!! [emoji4]

/Swede

I'm going to study this some more because I also read about toe out adding turn in but I think that statement has to be qualified as to what kind of suspension the car has.

When I think about toe out into a turn I think, ok the inner tire probably bites more as it has an angle into the turn built in already. But the outer tire is not pointing on the car's line. It's point away, off track and off tangent.

And since when you are turning its that outer tire that is bearing the load of the weight transfer, how can this mean better turn in? That outer tire is going to have a greater slip angle than the inner tire and when those slip angles differ you have serious handling problems requiring a lot of work on the driver - which was exactly what I experienced. Then you're going to get uneven tire wire. I can't find one redeeming quality of it in my brain.

Maybe the theory expects the track to be perfectly flat and the car to have zero roll. I dunno.

 

[Swede]

I read somewhere that the tires follow their turn radius better when you have some toe out. The outer wheel has a larger turn radius than the inner wheel. Therefore, the wanted turn angle of the inner wheel is steeper, such as when you have toe out.

With toe in, the inner tire will be counteracting the turn since it is pointing away (more straight) from the wanted turn radius.

 

[Swede]

Let's say we compare with downhill skiing. Beginners ski with toe in and turn with most load on the outer ski. What if the inner ski should toe out, ie be angled into the turn instead... Would the turn be quicker? Yes (if you'd still be standing...)!

 

[blacksheep-1]

All theory tells me it's the other way around.. Front wheel Toe out will give faster turn in at the cost of straight line stability. Toe in does the opposite.

There are some discussions about it here on BMO. [emoji4]

Also, Wikipedia http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toe_%28automotive%29

Please align (killing myself [emoji12] ) me if I got it wrong.

Anyway, thanks for the tip with the alignment rod. Good idea!!! [emoji4]

/Swede

I disagree with the article, as another example, most kart racers I know, when they get into a stock car, end up in the wall withing the first 20 laps. This is because they are taught to counter steer when the rear end steps out. The problem with this is that the car's weight shift from the stiffer right side of the car tot he overly soft left side springs, this shoots the car into the wall immediately, I've seen this a million times (ok 20). Now consider this, you are driving down the road, the tires are massively toed in, when you turn left, especially under deceleration, the weight plants the right front tire, which is toed in, then you counter steer, then the left front is planted and the car shoots right...

 

[Swede]

A quick internet search resulted in a large number of articles stating that toe out helps turn in and induces more oversteer while toe in induces understeer.
But there's no point in arguing about it, let's agree to disagree

/Swede

 

[DGRacing]

This is a good time for a phrase I like. "The gap between theory in practice is wider in practice than it is in theory."

Maybe some people write that toe out helps and there are analogies to explain why, but when I tried it my car wouldn't stay on the track in a turn at 60mph. Completely undriveable.
Now, maybe its because my car was balanced before I tinkered with the alignment causing it to be unsafe at speed. Maybe if you do toe out you have to design the whole setup around that, I dunno. But I do know it was freaky unstable for me and wouldn't turn at all.

 

[blacksheep-1]

This is a good time for a phrase I like. "The gap between theory in practice is wider in practice than it is in theory."

Maybe some people write that toe out helps and there are analogies to explain why, but when I tried it my car wouldn't stay on the track in a turn at 60mph. Completely undriveable.
Now, maybe its because my car was balanced before I tinkered with the alignment causing it to be unsafe at speed. Maybe if you do toe out you have to design the whole setup around that, I dunno. But I do know it was freaky unstable for me and wouldn't turn at all.

we are also talking a massive amount of toe in and not..say 1 degree

 

[Swede]

DG#56, I found this regarding toe out:

Just Right
Helps reduce understeer on turn-in
Makes car more responsive to steering input
Helps FWD and AWD cars counter their natural tendency to toe-in under throttle load.

Too Much
Makes car twitchy under braking
Unstable in a straight line, especially over single-wheel bumps or split traction surfaces
An extreme amount of front toe-out will cause the car to refuse to turn and go into unrecoverable understeer
Car will be very crown sensitive and tend to follow the contour of the road strongly.

Source: http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ID/1936/PageID/3047/The-Ultimate-Guide-to-Suspension-and-Handling-Part-Seven--Tuning-your-Toe.aspx

I believe we already established that your toe out angle was too high, and as such the car would actually become more prone to understeer.

/Swede