Thinking of a 2018+ mustang for mostly track duty, occasional weekend car, looking for info

[Mad Hatter]

I like the GT350 a lot but am sensitive to engine failure$. The fact that Ford races cross plane cranks speaks volumes about the flat plane too me. Nice Idea though...

 

[PaddyPrix]

I like the GT350 a lot but am sensitive to engine failure$. The fact that Ford races cross plane cranks speaks volumes about the flat plane too me. Nice Idea though...

Which is one of the reasons why the Mach 1 was created, reliability of the 3rd Gen Coyote engine, TR3160 trans, and more or less PP/GT350 parts. Depending on who you believe on the internet about Voodoo engine reliability, like our Chilean friend put it, flat plane crank is not in most (any?) of their race motors should be a hint. Similar to the BMW e60 m5 s85 engines which was a phenomenal f1 sounding engine with a very unreliable SMG trans, and a slew of engine problems that in most cases, cost more than the car to fix.

 

[TMSBOSS]

I like the GT350 a lot but am sensitive to engine failure$. The fact that Ford races cross plane cranks speaks volumes about the flat plane too me. Nice Idea though...

The failures are not limited to the engine Although caused by the engine.
We have a thread with a failed header caused by engine vibration. I had the check engine light with no codes which turned into the loose nut on the trans output shaft.
Was the 350R a great car to drive hard? Yep, loved it. The love affair stopped as problems came up.
There is a thread here where a member found a lightly wrecked Mach 1 on Copart. I am looking for the same car if anyone sees one come up, let me know. A Three pedal Mach 1 will likely be my next project. Don’t tell my wife. I am learning that since I drive to achieve improvement on my times and skills, the last generation is a bit cheaper than the newest toys. Who knew.
I can imagine Ford engineers are looking at the new Corvette engine and are think “We could have told you so”, while laughing in their beers.

 

[ACGTS40]

The gentleman with the question raced Spec Racer and karts so he is not a neophyte but just wondering a bit about doing some things to a street car. We all joke about heel and toe being misspelled but keep in mind the culprit is usually little Miss Spellcheck. I do believe his questions are quite open to get a better feel for what folks here are doing, but remember many of us enjoy calling wheels rims and vise versa , just to rile our good buddy Blacksheep 1. To be fair , regardless that a wheel has a rim, both are correct in discussing what a tire goes on because " rims " has not only become a common place slang it is often even used in advertising businesses who deal in the products in parts of the US. Take time and google rims and wheels , but I digress.

4 point harnesses are legal and used heavily in autocrossing and some organizations still allow them for track experiences, but the majority require either the factory three points, a five point , or the preferred 6 point harness system;

Some of the cars have a factory rev match ( Mach 1 ) whereas a GT 350 does not, but there are after market systems that will allow one to modify your car to do this ( Blip Shift comes to mind)

Many folks will get a full race seat, but attaching a harness system with factory seats like the Recaros are quite common with various harness bars or something like a Watson four point roll bar. Not disagreeing that an FIA seat is better , but let's not say it is required in all situations ---- full race W2W ,sure, but HPDEs, not necessarily.

And everyone have a nice day!

Def looking to install better seats since safety is a big concern of mine. Nothing against the car but after you are strapped into a purposely built race car I sort of feel naked sitting in a stock seat w the stock harness.

 

[steveespo]

Thank you for the info
understand about steeda and that is why i came here, looking for advice from people have been down this path before.

Ok I will try and answer the best I can to help save you long run money. Get a ^ speed PP1 car, 2018 or 2019. The brake package will be good to go with Pagid race pads and Ford DOT 5.1 brake fluid, until you really need to step up to race brakes, which should be either AP Pro 5000, or the 15" Brembo motorsport kit. Seats, forget about any factory seat, Get a proper race seat with head containment protection to go along with a Watson 4 point roll bar and proper 6 point harnesses. No intermediate steps there, also an updated SA 2020 helmet and a HANS device. For suspension, forget about aftermarket lowering springs and sway bars. Go straight to a quality coil over setup, MCS, JRi, JRZ, Penske or Multimatic if you really have some cash, are the main brands to choose from. Either go with a JRi package from Cortex or a MCS package from Terry at Vorshlag. These will come with proper camber plates and they will advise on spring rates and initial settings based on your car weight and tracks you run at. Tuning with good shocks and ease of spring rate change cannot be overestimated. Any available conventional shock/spring setup is not strong enough to handle the loading capability of race tires, Hoosier R7s, A7s or race take off slicks. A transmission swap to a GTT350 style Tremec or a Magnum XL will be desirable for serious track use, add a trans cooler. Differential cooler is mandatory, 5 laps or less and you will cook the axle lube. Next is spherical bearings at all the suspension pivot points. Cortex and OP Mustang are two vendors that can steer you right for these. They also sell the parts to replace your original bushings if you have access to a press and are a fair mechanic. Engine oil cooler. Start at Setrab 960 and don't look back, it is one of the largest and the design is the most efficient out there, stay away from Mishimoto nonsense. Wheels, Apex 18" or 19" x 11" ET 52 backspacing, flow formed is fine, forged are better.This will be the biggest combo you can fit under un flared fenders with 315/30-18 or 19 Hoosier R7s. OP Mustang can provide the 25mm hubcentric front spacers needed to fit these up along with much higher strength lug studs to go with them. At this point you are ready to do some serious tracking, don't mess with the engine until you have the car all fitted up and setup suspension wise. Time on the track is in the corners, not really on the straights. When you get your cornering skill maximized then start tuning the engine, I would start with a CAI from JLT or PMAS and long tube header, x pipe and the lightest performance mufflers you can stand listening to. Weight is key so anything you don't need on track take it out. If its a street car then leave it in. You can do this in dribs and drabs, but don't waste money going from stock to intermediate steps like cheap coil overs or lowering springs, or bump steer kits or rear toe links etc. Believe me, I have done all of that on three cars and always end up with the setup outlined here. I could have saved tens of thousands by not buying gimmick parts from Steeda, BMR, Full Tilt Boogie and all the American Muscle/CJ Pony Parts junk that does nothing for speed. Talk to Vorshlag, Capaldi Racing, Cortex, or KohR Motorsports to name a few and see who you feel comfortable and take their advice on build a car that performs. It is not cheap anyway you do it, but the direct route will save you money and will be better performing in the end by a long ways.
Oh and finally, ask here on TMO before making huge purchases, We have vendors and members that will advise you on what works and what doesn't and also help you get into the Aero portion of the build when its time.
Good luck.
Steve

 

[bnight]

Hey Steve is anyware on the site a writeup on the Setrab 960 setup ? Isn't that what is run on FP350s and now on the new Dark Horse R ?

 

[steveespo]

Hey Steve is anyware on the site a writeup on the Setrab 960 setup ? Isn't that what is run on FP350s and now on the new Dark Horse R ?

Yes the FP350S used it and I don't know if DH-R is but would assume so. I just looked to see if I had any pictures of my installation but I don't. Will have the nose off again next week so I'll try and get some shots.

 

[ACGTS40]

Ok I will try and answer the best I can to help save you long run money. Get a ^ speed PP1 car, 2018 or 2019. The brake package will be good to go with Pagid race pads and Ford DOT 5.1 brake fluid, until you really need to step up to race brakes, which should be either AP Pro 5000, or the 15" Brembo motorsport kit. Seats, forget about any factory seat, Get a proper race seat with head containment protection to go along with a Watson 4 point roll bar and proper 6 point harnesses. No intermediate steps there, also an updated SA 2020 helmet and a HANS device. For suspension, forget about aftermarket lowering springs and sway bars. Go straight to a quality coil over setup, MCS, JRi, JRZ, Penske or Multimatic if you really have some cash, are the main brands to choose from. Either go with a JRi package from Cortex or a MCS package from Terry at Vorshlag. These will come with proper camber plates and they will advise on spring rates and initial settings based on your car weight and tracks you run at. Tuning with good shocks and ease of spring rate change cannot be overestimated. Any available conventional shock/spring setup is not strong enough to handle the loading capability of race tires, Hoosier R7s, A7s or race take off slicks. A transmission swap to a GTT350 style Tremec or a Magnum XL will be desirable for serious track use, add a trans cooler. Differential cooler is mandatory, 5 laps or less and you will cook the axle lube. Next is spherical bearings at all the suspension pivot points. Cortex and OP Mustang are two vendors that can steer you right for these. They also sell the parts to replace your original bushings if you have access to a press and are a fair mechanic. Engine oil cooler. Start at Setrab 960 and don't look back, it is one of the largest and the design is the most efficient out there, stay away from Mishimoto nonsense. Wheels, Apex 18" or 19" x 11" ET 52 backspacing, flow formed is fine, forged are better.This will be the biggest combo you can fit under un flared fenders with 315/30-18 or 19 Hoosier R7s. OP Mustang can provide the 25mm hubcentric front spacers needed to fit these up along with much higher strength lug studs to go with them. At this point you are ready to do some serious tracking, don't mess with the engine until you have the car all fitted up and setup suspension wise. Time on the track is in the corners, not really on the straights. When you get your cornering skill maximized then start tuning the engine, I would start with a CAI from JLT or PMAS and long tube header, x pipe and the lightest performance mufflers you can stand listening to. Weight is key so anything you don't need on track take it out. If its a street car then leave it in. You can do this in dribs and drabs, but don't waste money going from stock to intermediate steps like cheap coil overs or lowering springs, or bump steer kits or rear toe links etc. Believe me, I have done all of that on three cars and always end up with the setup outlined here. I could have saved tens of thousands by not buying gimmick parts from Steeda, BMR, Full Tilt Boogie and all the American Muscle/CJ Pony Parts junk that does nothing for speed. Talk to Vorshlag, Capaldi Racing, Cortex, or KohR Motorsports to name a few and see who you feel comfortable and take their advice on build a car that performs. It is not cheap anyway you do it, but the direct route will save you money and will be better performing in the end by a long ways.
Oh and finally, ask here on TMO before making huge purchases, We have vendors and members that will advise you on what works and what doesn't and also help you get into the Aero portion of the build when its time.
Good luck.
Steve

Thanks for all the great info! I’m still in search of the route I will be going. This is very helpful

 

[modernbeat]

Ok I will try and answer the best I can to help save you long run money....

What Steve said is pretty much spot on. I try not to scare noobs with that long list, but in reality, that is what we'd like to see.

The few things I'd add, for sprint races and time trials you may not need a transmission cooler with the 2018+ MT82-D4 transmission. We ran data on the temps and it was never alarming. The differential was a different story and was so high we had to get a different measurement to see what it topped out at.

One of the good things about the 2018+ cars is that the MT82-D4 and the Tremec Magnum XL have similar gearing, so you may not need to regear the differential when performing the transmission swap.

And for cooling, use the Derale 10000 series heat exchangers instead of the budget busting Setrab parts. They perform about the same. Setrab has some novel sizes that fit some applications better. But if you can work with the Derale sizes, it can save you some funds.

 

[steveespo]

What Steve said is pretty much spot on. I try not to scare noobs with that long list, but in reality, that is what we'd like to see.

The few things I'd add, for sprint races and time trials you may not need a transmission cooler with the 2018+ MT82-D4 transmission. We ran data on the temps and it was never alarming. The differential was a different story and was so high we had to get a different measurement to see what it topped out at.

One of the good things about the 2018+ cars is that the MT82-D4 and the Tremec Magnum XL have similar gearing, so you may not need to regear the differential when performing the transmission swap.

And for cooling, use the Derale 10000 series heat exchangers instead of the budget busting Setrab parts. They perform about the same. Setrab has some novel sizes that fit some applications better. But if you can work with the Derale sizes, it can save you some funds.

I admit to being a Setrab maniac. There are of course some equally good quality and performing units out there. I could never abide the gearing of the MT-82D4 with its double useless overdirives in 5th and 6th, with 2nd being too short it was a two gear transmission at the tracks we run here in the east. My car has the 2015-17 spec MT-82 built by Calimer this time and 3,4,5 are all used at all the tracks I run. And to Jason's point cooling is rarely a necessity, rarely do temps go over 200 degrees, I turn the pumps on at 180, for both transmission and diff.

 

[TennTex]

Couple quick items in this vein...

Running a 2017 PP1. I installed my own Diff cooler - basically mimicked the FTB by buying my own parts and didn't want to fool with changing the Diff cover. Prior to this, I changed my MT-82 Trans and Diff fluid each year. So, with the Diff cooler, anyone have feeling for how long the fluid life should be extended? (I have not added a trans cooler, so still changing that once per year.)

Comment on MT-82 gearing, like Steveespo, I run 3-4 gears on track with 5th only on long, fast straights. I do try to run taller tires on my 18" x 11" Apex wheels, because I do sometimes run out of rpms in 4th on shorter straights (stock engine and 3.73 Torsen rear). Just ran some Michelin used slicks in 30/680, and I could feel this difference vs. my normal 305/30 ratio tires.

 

[steveespo]

Couple quick items in this vein...

Running a 2017 PP1. I installed my own Diff cooler - basically mimicked the FTB by buying my own parts and didn't want to fool with changing the Diff cover. Prior to this, I changed my MT-82 Trans and Diff fluid each year. So, with the Diff cooler, anyone have feeling for how long the fluid life should be extended? (I have not added a trans cooler, so still changing that once per year.)

Comment on MT-82 gearing, like Steveespo, I run 3-4 gears on track with 5th only on long, fast straights. I do try to run taller tires on my 18" x 11" Apex wheels, because I do sometimes run out of rpms in 4th on shorter straights (stock engine and 3.73 Torsen rear). Just ran some Michelin used slicks in 30/680, and I could feel this difference vs. my normal 305/30 ratio tires.

I change diff fluid every 12 track hours, street driving plays no part in the decision (since the car is never on the street anyway) Transmission I do every 8 hrs and engine every 6.

 

[TennTex]

I change diff fluid every 12 track hours, street driving plays no part in the decision (since the car is never on the street anyway) Transmission I do every 8 hrs and engine every 6.

Thanks for the info, at that rate + a diff cooler, that oil should be in very good shape. I don't really drive my car on the street either. I'd say my change hours are in the same ballpark, but have deferred the diff change with the cooler, just have to decide...

 

[Mad Hatter]

Couple quick items in this vein...

Running a 2017 PP1. I installed my own Diff cooler - basically mimicked the FTB by buying my own parts and didn't want to fool with changing the Diff cover. Prior to this, I changed my MT-82 Trans and Diff fluid each year. So, with the Diff cooler, anyone have feeling for how long the fluid life should be extended? (I have not added a trans cooler, so still changing that once per year.)

Comment on MT-82 gearing, like Steveespo, I run 3-4 gears on track with 5th only on long, fast straights. I do try to run taller tires on my 18" x 11" Apex wheels, because I do sometimes run out of rpms in 4th on shorter straights (stock engine and 3.73 Torsen rear). Just ran some Michelin used slicks in 30/680, and I could feel this difference vs. my normal 305/30 ratio tires.

Just a note: the Calimer stage 3 with forged internals has longer gears then stock from 2nd to 4th gear, 5th is still 1:1. Liked the gearing with 30/680-18 tires as well.

 

[ScottD]

I change diff fluid every 12 track hours, street driving plays no part in the decision (since the car is never on the street anyway) Transmission I do every 8 hrs and engine every 6.

I agree with these fluid change intervals. My 2019 GT PP1 (highly modded) is a dedicated HPDE and Time Attack car. I drive it hard. Run 1.36.86 at Road Atlanta and 2.26.8 at Sebring. I change engine oil and brake fluid after each track weekend. Transmission and Diff after 2x weekends. I’m considering changing all fluids after each event which would be around 6 hours of track time, give or take. I have a Kenny Brown diff cooler and have wrapped the exhaust. Still diff temp gets close to redline in the afternoon sessions. Often considered that transmission temps are likely an issue but don’t know since there is no sensor or gauge. Recently learned that actual engine oil temp is not monitored either but rather derived by a calculation using CHT and RPM. Brake cooling has recently become an issue (pad fade) as my skills get better allowing more fast laps on R comp tires. This car is a rabbit hole, but still easier on the bank account than a Porsche. I can hang with the GT3’s in any corner but they pull away on the straights. Next mod is going to be some weight reduction and trying E85 to see if I can improve the HP to weight ratio without going forced induction.

 

[GTP]

Thanks for all the great info! I’m still in search of the route I will be going. This is very helpful

I think the Mach1 is the sweet spot for track Mustangs, since it has the coolers and the Coyote has proven reliability. I believe the A10 is absolutely fantastic for track duty, and fun for me, too. With the M1 you can choose manual/auto trans. I still doubt if its oil cooling is sufficient on track, but I haven't yet found many threads complaining about high CHT.

If you could predict that you would definitely become a track rat and want a dedicated track car, then take Steveespo (expensive) advice. And I would then bide my time looking for someone else's used track car to save money.

The third route - and the one many of us took - is to start with a PP1 or PP2 car and then modify it As Needed: camber plates, square track day wheels, cooling, minor suspension mods, etc. This will allow you to spend gradually before you can determine if you are a track rat, or HPDE-for-fun kind of guy (like me). If I was a track rat and wanted to spend a lot of money, I'd probably just go straight to a used Porsche.

For example, my car started out 2019 GT/PP1/A10. I added cradle lockout, spherical bearings everywhere, stiffer bars, square wheel set, camber plates, 3 oil coolers, GT350 brakes, no engine mods, etc. All over five years.

 

[bnight]

I think the Mach1 is the sweet spot for track Mustangs, since it has the coolers and the Coyote has proven reliability. I believe the A10 is absolutely fantastic for track duty, and fun for me, too. With the M1 you can choose manual/auto trans. I still doubt if its oil cooling is sufficient on track, but I haven't yet found many threads complaining about high CHT.

I did extensive testing with friends A10 Mach 1 and CHT middle of the lap was close to my Gen 2 without cooling. What was the huge difference was how fast CHT was dropping on cool down laps. Both cars hit 240F CHT but after cooldown M1 was at 203F while my GT was at 217F this mean that in a session you will be able to fit more fast no restricted laps with a M1 just because you will need less cooldown laps. The A10 was skipping gears and acting up in just a few laps if really pushed so I wouldn't call it ideal for track but could be adaptations. Overall was good though.

 

[Mad Hatter]

From what we see down here. the regular A10 goes for a max of three hot laps before it acts up. The Mach1 goes for maybe four or five. The tranny has lots of potential and lets the car really accelerate, but needs a lot of work for any extended track work. I get the impression that on modified cars, they are having lots more problems then previous 6 spd. At least the pile of dead 10spds at the shop seem to point that way.

 

[@Drew.Cleaver]

There is some great feedback in this thread, thanks to the contributors. I've been evaluating a Dark Horse time attack build.

It's been a long time since I've built a Mustang; exhausts are supercharger prices now.