Kenny Brown PHB relocation help

[Fabman]

And here is the KB Rear Grip Kit we're all talking about.

 

[Grant 302]

Kenny Brown track day front springs are 550 with street tires, 650 for sticky tires.
“the more spring you put into your mustang the better it’s going to handle ”

**Edited wording for accuracy

Thanks for posting the video. I wasn’t gonna go look for it.

Kenny did provide an example where he did an economized package full suspension front and rear, but with Koni yellows and H&R springs in the 300#/in.(+) range. Seems like this would be an possible step forward for the OP if other parts haven’t been ordered.

I’ve said in the past that I could easily see using 800#/in.+ in the front on slicks. At least for cars that don’t see time on the street.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Now, if you decide to design your own suspension pieces, then you'd better stick to whatever that provider gives you all the way around, if ABC suspension company says this is the ultimate setup, that hoses up all the factory attachment points, you damn well better buy every part they make or recommend, or don't hold them accountable for the outcome. By that measurement ABC should also provide technical sheets on what they build, alignment sheets and tire width and compound recommendations so whoever buys their stuff can have at least some chance of reproducing what they did, and they should provide at least an active phone number for track support, at least at national events.

Exactly. The whole post, but the above in particular.

Even for the less serious enthusiast, company ABC really should go beyond shipping their kit-in-a-box with installation instructions, essentially saying "just take our word for it", and moving on to filling the next order. But I doubt it happens that way very often in the readily-accessible suspension aftermarket.


Personally, I'd never fault a company if I do something outside their control. I'd own it and either live with it if I was OK with the outcome or change it if I wasn't. Maybe a lot of people don't think like that any more . . .


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

And here is the KB Rear Grip Kit we're all talking about.

Thanks for the link.

There's definitely more going on with the geometry than from just lowering the PHB. Plan-view LCA convergence seems to have been shifted, and I wouldn't expect his UCA and UCA bracket to work very well at all without doing axle-side LCA relocation, either.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

For those that missed it:

Thanks for this link, too. I don't do fb, so youtube links are the only way I get to see these. I found this episode to be better and more informative than others I've watched pieces of.

Around 16 minutes in, he gets into it being a real PITA for him to try to fix something when a customer went off on his own for some of it, and I understand that completely. It shouldn't be his problem to solve when it's the customer who changed something without realizing the implications of doing so. Especially if KB isn't keeping all of the engineering data right at his fingertips. I don't blame him a bit.

KB's philosophy definitely feels more toward "stiff spring/soft bar" than most, that his approach is more about dialing back from race rather than building up from OE street. 400-ish for performance street - I'm really thinking that's where a dual-purpose occasional street/fairly serious HPDE car might end up - is definitely up there, somewhere around 2.0 Hz. Not un-do-able, but you and your passengers had better be able to appreciate a firm ride all the time.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Kenny did provide an example where he did an economized package full suspension front and rear, but with Koni yellows and H&R springs in the 300#/in.(+) range. Seems like this would be an possible step forward for the OP if other parts haven’t been ordered.

I caught that as well, and it's not terribly different from what's on my '08. A little more spring (325 vs 260 front and 285 vs 220 rear) and probably a little less bar (especially if KB recommended removing the rear bar, which I don't think he got into). I can picture that being streetable, given tolerance for ride firmness and a little experimentation with damper settings. Might be getting close to what the yellows can handle, though.


Norm

 

[Grant 302]

Thanks for the link.

There's definitely more going on with the geometry than from just lowering the PHB. Plan-view LCA convergence seems to have been shifted, and I wouldn't expect his UCA and UCA bracket to work very well at all without doing axle-side LCA relocation, either.


Norm

Yes, but removing the splay/convergence from the lower arms is typical for most aftermarket. I also believe it’s an important aspect in changing the roll steer properties.

 

[Grant 302]

I caught that as well, and it's not terribly different from what's on my '08. A little more spring (325 vs 260 front and 285 vs 220 rear) and probably a little less bar (especially if KB recommended removing the rear bar, which I don't think he got into). I can picture that being streetable, given tolerance for ride firmness and a little experimentation with damper settings. Might be getting close to what the yellows can handle, though.


Norm

It should be okay damping wise. Others have used Koni yellows and those springs and others in similar range. Reports were positive from what I remember and some at least were run at and near full soft at the track.

I have a set in the garage, but bought the CorteX coilovers before I tried them out.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Yes, but removing the splay/convergence from the lower arms is typical for most aftermarket. I also believe it’s an important aspect in changing the roll steer properties.

Agreed.

It looks like KB is pushing this tweak as far as it'll go and ending up with an LCA convergence point somewhere in front of the car rather than behind it like OE.


Norm

 

[Fabman]

Yes, but removing the splay/convergence from the lower arms is typical for most aftermarket. I also believe it’s an important aspect in changing the roll steer properties.

Same experience, I have had about 5 or 6 different sets of RLCA's and all of them addressed the splay in the arms.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I hope it's because they're specifically making some assumptions about lowering and rear LCA relocating.


Norm

 

[Grant 302]

I hope it's because they're specifically making some assumptions about lowering and rear LCA relocating.


Norm

I think that’s a given. Especially regarding all of the posts herein about using parts from different manufacturers.

Sticking to one ‘system’ or manufacturer is good advice in general, and almost certainly for people unfamiliar with suspension tuning and theory. But I think it’s somewhat bad advice to use as a hard and fast rule.

For example, I think I could drop in the KB PHB in my GT and drop the 18mm bar. Adding yet another manufacturer’s parts to the list. Some adjusting up front is likely, but may be small as in static camber...which I do anyway for track specific settings.

From Kenny’s video, he does clarify quite a bit about spring rates and ranges that ‘work’ based on use but mainly tire grip levels...as we’ve often said here at TMO.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I think that’s a given. Especially regarding all of the posts herein about using parts from different manufacturers.

It was interesting to watch the changes in roll steer and anti-squat as pivot locations and ride height are varied.

Sticking to one ‘system’ or manufacturer is good advice in general, and almost certainly for people unfamiliar with suspension tuning and theory. But I think it’s somewhat bad advice to use as a hard and fast rule.

I guess we have to accept that KB and the rest have to cater to those less knowledgeable, especially as geometry is affected. And that there will be people who take that recommendation and assume that it applies as a universal law not to be disobeyed by anybody.

From Kenny’s video, he does clarify quite a bit about spring rates and ranges that ‘work’ based on use but mainly tire grip levels...as we’ve often said here at TMO.

More specific information than I was expecting.


Norm

 

[Grant 302]

It was interesting to watch the changes in roll steer and anti-squat as pivot locations and ride height are varied.

Definitely interesting. And not easy to do things like increase roll oversteer and reduce anti-squat without monkeying with at least another variable.

And it’s this part which is my main interest in the PHB relocation. That the lower RC can also contribute to the roll oversteer. Combine that with better weight transfer properties for more forward and lateral grip...

Well, those are some reasons why I’ve been looking down this rabbit hole.

I guess we have to accept that KB and the rest have to cater to those less knowledgeable, especially as geometry is affected. And that there will be people who take that recommendation and assume that it applies as a universal law not to be disobeyed by anybody.

I accept and expect such catering to for those customers. Or they wouldn’t sell enough units to make good products available at teasonable prices. I only wish there were better explanations and videos to go with everything. Like Kenny’s C&C broadcast had better info than the video posted on his website and product listings.

More specific information than I was expecting.

Yeah, way more. The bar was set pretty low with his product videos.

 

[302 Hi Pro]

I have a complete Kenny Brown set up with PHB relocation kit and front K member set up and control arm relocation brackets. Car previously had the complete Ford suspension package. I do not have Coilovers, and am not looking to upgrade to Coilovers. After instillation of the Kenny Brown kit, I get quite a bit more push compared to the Ford kit. I am not running a rear sway bar as the Ford Performance blue bar, interferes with the PHB relocation bracket. To me there seems to be more body roll compared to the Ford kit. I have been unable to find information on anyone running a smaller rear sway bar with the KB kit. From my understanding, without the rear sway bar my effective spring rates in turns is now reduced without the rear bar.

I am trying to find anyone that has run a rear sway bar with the KB relocation kit, and what size they used. To me I feel too much roll compared to the Ford kit, and am getting more push in left bank turns. The Ford kit with Ford blue rear sway bar did not have this push, and felt more control in left turns, which in turn I felt more confident in curves. The KB kit leaves me less confident in curves, and makes the car less fun to drive.

I am trying to find if I could use a 20mm or 18mm rear sway bar with the KB relocation brackets, or I am looking to just revert back to the Ford blue sway bar and remove just the KB PHB relocation kit, and replace it with and adjustable Panhard Bar. I read in some post that Yopauly added a rear bar to the KB relocation kit, but no information was given on size or anything. KB on videos says he has used a smaller rear sway bar, but no information was given on the size, and I could not get an answer on size from calling KB.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thank you all.

Here is the OP’s original post.

I’m still wondering. . . Have we helped him? Have we answered his question?

 

[Fabman]

Here is the OP’s original post.

I’m still wondering. . . Have we helped him? Have we answered his question?

He mentioned that he was going to remove the KB PHB kit and go back to the rear sway bar that worked with his springs before, so....I think we helped him?

 

[302 Hi Pro]

He mentioned that he was going to remove the KB PHB kit and go back to the rear sway bar that worked with his springs before, so....I think we helped him?

Good news & a wise choice.

Thank you FabMan as I missed that.

 

[Fabman]

Good news & a wise choice.

Thank you FabMan as I missed that.

Probably the simplest solution....Unless there is some OTHER problem we don't know about.

 

[Grant 302]

Here is the OP’s original post.

I’m still wondering. . . Have we helped him? Have we answered his question?

Still going over reasons there were issues with his specific mix n match effort.

Yes, so far, the OP has said he’d remove the PHB relocation brackets and go back to the sway bar.

But with the current mix of parts and doing that alone, we should also point out the potential mistake of ALL the remaining mis-matched parts. K-member, A-arms, Pedders springs, and I don’t even think anybody asked what dampers.

No word about trying possible adjustments I suggested like using the upper adjustment point or increasing the front right camber, if possible.

 

[APharaoh06]

Parts were not mismatched. I purchased the car with a complete FRPP suspension. I had the K springs but they were too low for street driving in my town. I replaced the FRPP K springs with the Pedders to raise the car 1/2"(they were similar rate to the FRPP springs) so it could be driven daily on the jacked up roads around my city. That worked perfect for daily driviing and keeping the same handling as the K springs.
Then I added the complete Kenny Brown suspension, minus the coilovers. The problem I had with the Panhard relocation kit, stated that you could remove your sway bar. However, it should state you cannot use a rear sway bar. I contacted KB, and from my conversation understand that he never used a rear bar on the S197. If a rear sway bar could be used, they should know what size, since they did the testing and he stated in his video that he sometimes uses a small rear sway bar. They could not give me a size of that small sway bar. I was expecting to use a small rear sway bar for fine adjustment, but one cannot be used with KB relocation kit. If someone knows of a bar that will work, feel free to chime in.