Question for the experienced - S197 vs Fox Body for track use

[mostloved]

Does the rigidity of the S197 platform outweigh the lightness of the fox bodies? (track use)

 

[PatientZero]

In my opinion the S197 is miles ahead of the fox/SN95. You can go faster with less work. At a certain point when you start adding roll cages and gutting the cars the difference is probably less because you can make anything fast with enough money and work.

Autocross example. My HEAVILY modified SN95 is on pace with lightly modded S197's and S550's. If they had all the work done I do and didn't weigh 400+ lbs more I'd have no chance. Look at CAM-T vs CAM-C times and keep in mind the CAM-T cars are lighter and more heavily modified in most cases.

 

[blacksheep-1]

In my opinion the S197 is miles ahead of the fox/SN95. You can go faster with less work. At a certain point when you start adding roll cages and gutting the cars the difference is probably less because you can make anything fast with enough money and work.

Autocross example. My HEAVILY modified SN95 is on pace with lightly modded S197's and S550's. If they had all the work done I do and didn't weigh 400+ lbs more I'd have no chance. Look at CAM-T vs CAM-C times and keep in mind the CAM-T cars are lighter and more heavily modified in most cases.

I've run both, the SN95s twist around a lot, a roll cage will help this, but most racing organizations limit the roll cage to the firewall and rear shock mounts, so you still have to deal with that front cradle migrating around. The S197s are very stable, with stitch welding of the tubs and a cage, they are solid, even when complying with construction rules.

 

[Vettel-ish]

Cant talk much on the 95 however the 197 is raced every weekend in NASA, GRIDLIFE, SCCA. I am also a bit bias.

 

[Dave_W]

The other major factor is the Bind-o-Matic triangulated 4-link rear design of the Fox/SN95 vs. the 3-link & panhard bar design of the S197. You'll tear your hair out trying to get the 4-link to work properly, while the Ford engineers fixed the problem completely with the S197 design.

 

[blacksheep-1]

The other major factor is the Bind-o-Matic triangulated 4-link rear design of the Fox/SN95 vs. the 3-link & panhard bar design of the S197. You'll tear your hair out trying to get the 4-link to work properly, while the Ford engineers fixed the problem completely with the S197 design.

Amen to that misery

 

[grigorie888]

Honestly, I think the S197's rigidity is a bigger advantage on the track than the Fox Body's lightness. The extra stiffness just makes it handle so much better.

 

[steveespo]

I think cage design on a Fox platform can create the same torsional and bending stiffness without adding more weight than the difference between a S197 and Fox. 2 Link/Torque arm/Watts rear suspension is mandatory. Stitch welding for sure. The front suspensions geometry can easily be duplicated on the Fox, there have been many developed systems. The question becomes desire, do you want to build either of these obsolete chassis'? S550 IRS/front geometry setups make those cars so much easier to drive at the limit and are better aerodynamically and in their braking systems. But it is always the Owners' choice.

 

[honeybadger]

Fox with roll cage + S550 IRS = Magic?

 

[steveespo]

Fox with roll cage + S550 IRS = Magic?

It has been tried but way too wide for the Fox body to be a "normal" race build. Better to just do a silhouette car with a Fox body over a dedicated chassis.

 

[Bill Pemberton]

.........and the answer is ........S197. There are just so many parts out there for this car, the mods are so much easier and with better torsional rigidity it is less of a headache to get so many things right. Having had both, over the years, the S197 still has plenty of appeal and when one has a choice it is the go to machine , imho.

 

[blacksheep-1]

It has been tried but way too wide for the Fox body to be a "normal" race build. Better to just do a silhouette car with a Fox body over a dedicated chassis.

Foxbody silhouette car....

 

[steveespo]

Foxbody silhouette car....



View attachment 97984

That is a European Capri Rob, but was definitely brought over and turned into the Miller Genuine Draft Mustang for IMSA in '81

 

[FilxNZ]

This is a question I have been thinking about as well as I'm thinking about a car with a cage for W2W. Down here in New Zealand any Mustang is a relative rarity but SN95s (and Foxes to a degree, though they are much more collectible so prices are increasing) are very much cheaper to get into v's S197 (around $15k USD for a rough SN95/New Edge v's $30-40k for a Coyote S197). Our class rules would allow an extensive cage out to the front struts etc, but it seems like biting the bullet on the upfront costs of an S197, but needing to do less to it, will still net a better result.

 

[Dave_W]

With the S197, you're designing the cage for safety. With the Fox/SN95, you're designing for both safety and chassis stiffness. So think of it as a semi-tubeframe car. To do it right, you really need FEA for the cage design. Plus, as mentioned above, you should replace the 4-link with a torque arm and Panhard or Watts. And after all that, you still have an engine that's down around 150HP to the Gen 1 Coyote in stock form. I haven't looked into it, but my gut feeling is that there's probably more performance parts available for the Windsor engine than the 4.6 2v Mod motor in the SN95, so it might actually be cheaper & easier to build a 500+HP 351 Windsor-based 383 or 408 stroker.

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/351-windsor-ford-engine-build-535-hp/

 

[blacksheep-1]

With the S197, you're designing the cage for safety. With the Fox/SN95, you're designing for both safety and chassis stiffness. So think of it as a semi-tubeframe car. To do it right, you really need FEA for the cage design. Plus, as mentioned above, you should replace the 4-link with a torque arm and Panhard or Watts. And after all that, you still have an engine that's down around 150HP to the Gen 1 Coyote in stock form. I haven't looked into it, but my gut feeling is that there's probably more performance parts available for the Windsor engine than the 4.6 2v Mod motor in the SN95, so it might actually be cheaper & easier to build a 500+HP 351 Windsor-based 383 or 408 stroker.

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/351-windsor-ford-engine-build-535-hp/

This... and the Windsors are very dependable, low tech and built right make good power.

 

[PatientZero]

There is another engine out there that's very economical to build...

 

[TYancy]

I've never had an S197 car, but I've had an S550. While the car was great even in stock form, it was rather boring after a while (to me) once I got used to it. That and along with having to take the car back to the dealer 3 times for A/C issues, I decided to part with it. However, I've had my '93 for 22 years and it will never go anywhere. It is way more fun to drive, more competitive, and 100% more engaging. While the design has many flaws, I don't care. I don't care if I'm not the fastest out there.....someone will always be faster (and have more money to do so). Choose whatever makes you happy and what you're comfortable with.

 

[mostloved]

I've never had an S197 car, but I've had an S550. While the car was great even in stock form, it was rather boring after a while (to me) once I got used to it. That and along with having to take the car back to the dealer 3 times for A/C issues, I decided to part with it. However, I've had my '93 for 22 years and it will never go anywhere. It is way more fun to drive, more competitive, and 100% more engaging. While the design has many flaws, I don't care. I don't care if I'm not the fastest out there.....someone will always be faster (and have more money to do so). Choose whatever makes you happy and what you're comfortable with.

the looks of the foxbody are my favorite out of all the gens but i cant decide if i want the old boxy 80s look or the better overall performance from a s197. neither of them are out of my budget so its really a choice up to preference. the car will be a weekend racer and a daily on nice days, thats why im having a hard time deciding. if it was solely a track car id buy a 2005-2009