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2011 V6 6-Speed Mustang for Endurance Racing

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Do you have the rulebook for the race series you want to participate in? Would be an interesting read. I wonder if since it's a Ford part that came in OEM vehicles if there's a loophole on what 'stock' is :)

Yep, that's the issue. The rules say we can use the diff if it was available for the year/make/model or generation of the car, but it excludes the Boss/GT500/etc since it's a specialty/high-performance model.

The gear rules are a similar story. We can use any factory-offered ratio for our year/make/model or generation, excluding specialty models like Boss 302. We had an idea last night that would possibly allow us to use 3.73s...we think those were offered in the 05-09 Mustang GT, which would make them allowed for our car (same generation). But we think they're too low for the job anyway.
 
We can use any factory-offered ratio for our year/make/model or generation, excluding specialty models like Boss 302.
2011 GT was offered standard with 3.31s, but 3.55s or 3.73s were a factory option on manual transmission Mustangs.

1675105032147.png

Another thing to keep in mind is that the 2013-2014 Mustang GT had the Track Pack option, which from factory included the Boss 302 Torsen. If you're allowed 'regular non-special version' parts from your generation, that covers a helical type differential since the GT is neither a Boss, Shelby, etc.

1675105924754.png

So I wouldn't see the problem based on your explanation of the rules in running any GT rear gear (3.31, 3.55, or 3.73) with the Boss Torsen you said you already have. You may even be able to use the automatic's 3.15 rear gear ratio if it worked better with your V6 transmission for the specific track you were looking to run at.
 
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2011 GT was offered standard with 3.31s, but 3.55s or 3.73s were a factory option on manual transmission Mustangs.

View attachment 83490

Another thing to keep in mind is that the 2013-2014 Mustang GT had the Track Pack option, which from factory included the Boss 302 Torsen. If you're allowed 'regular non-special version' parts from your generation, that covers a helical type differential since the GT is neither a Boss, Shelby, etc.

View attachment 83491

So I wouldn't see the problem based on your explanation of the rules in running any GT rear gear (3.31, 3.55, or 3.73) with the Boss Torsen you said you already have. You may even be able to use the automatic's 3.15 rear gear ratio if it worked better with your V6 transmission for the specific track you were looking to run at.

This is where the rules get confusing. I don't think we can use parts from cars that are not on the allowed list. But the rule doesn't really say that.

Here's the full Champ rule so that I'm not just giving you half of it or my (possibly flawed) interpretation:
"Differential swap: 25pts for any diff not originally available for your year, make, and model or chassis generation (excluding specialty high performance models not listed on the VPI table). Includes axles and CV’s."

"Final drive ratio is open to all factory offered ratios for that body style or chassis generation. If that body style or chassis generation was offered from the factory with an LSD, its use is permitted. Specialty high performance models not listed on the VPI table are excluded."


2011-14 Mustang GTs are not on the approved list. So I was thinking the only "factory option" parts we could run are:
-2005-09 Base or GT
-2011-2014 Base

From what we found last night, the 05-09 GT had a 3.73 option. So it's possible to run that; it's the same generation and on the allowed list. But the Torsen...I'm thinking it's a no-go, since that "Track Package" might be a specialty high-performance model and not on the VPI list.
 
I'm thinking it's a no-go, since that "Track Package" might be a specialty high-performance model and not on the VPI list.
Here's where the nuance could potentially come in. The Mustang GT is a model (could be further refined by saying that GT is a trim of the Mustang model, but that would open up the Boss 302 as being a trim as well). The Track Package is an option on that model/chassis and is included as a factory part on your chassis generation. I don't think anyone would call a GT a 'specialty' model, unless you're saying that a Mustang GT couldn't run in the same series you are? Is there a sanctioning body you can reach out to for clarification on the verbiage?

The Brembo Brake Package was the track-package-by-another-name in 2011 and 2012. It had the upgraded 14" 4-piston brakes (which the Boss-to-be later used in 2012) and a retuned suspension with different springs and dampers. They added additional parts-bin features in the 2013-2014 Track Package as carryovers from the Boss. I personally think based on the limited information I've seen so far that it would allow you to run all of those components that were not exclusively offered in the Boss 302, including better 4-piston calipers and the helical diff.
 
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Bill Pemberton

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Trying to out think the rules usually ends up with one getting protested since there is almost always a statement noting that if an option is not specifically included, adding it something you don't find specifically excluded is ok. Rule of thumb is if looking for gray areas, they have been viewed by many so often the " Rules Committee " often just comes down to whether an item on a approved list --- not on the list, you are better off skipping any rationalizations on why you can use your secretly found mod.
 
Here's where the nuance could potentially come in. The Mustang GT is a model (could be further refined by saying that GT is a trim of the Mustang model, but that would open up the Boss 302 as being a trim as well). The Track Package is an option on that model/chassis and is included as a factory part on your chassis generation. I don't think anyone would call a GT a 'specialty' model, unless you're saying that a Mustang GT couldn't run in the same series you are? Is there a sanctioning body you can reach out to for clarification on the verbiage?

The Brembo Brake Package was the track-package-by-another-name in 2011 and 2012. It had the upgraded 14" 4-piston brakes (which the Boss-to-be later used in 2012) and a retuned suspension with different springs and dampers. They added additional parts-bin features in the 2013-2014 Track Package as carryovers from the Boss. I personally think based on the limited information I've seen so far that it would allow you to run all of those components that were not exclusively offered in the Boss 302, including better 4-piston calipers and the helical diff.
Yes, that's the case here. Except 05-09 GTs can run with us, 2010+ GTs can't (yet anyway).
Trying to out think the rules usually ends up with one getting protested since there is almost always a statement noting that if an option is not specifically included, adding it something you don't find specifically excluded is ok. Rule of thumb is if looking for gray areas, they have been viewed by many so often the " Rules Committee " often just comes down to whether an item on a approved list --- not on the list, you are better off skipping any rationalizations on why you can use your secretly found mod.
That is also correct. They do have that in there.
 
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Not sure if this helps, but for 'stock' I've seen GT referenced here a bit, but no mention yet of V6 Performance Pack that was a 2012 factory option, if this helps you at all:

V-6 Perf. Pack comes with:

Shelby GT500 rear lower control arms
Mustang GT front struts and rear shocks and springs
Mustang GT coupe front and rear stabilizer bars
Mustang GT front and rear calipers w/ Performance Friction pads
Front strut tower brace
3.31:1 rear end ratio
19" wheels with Pirelli P-Zero 255/40-19 summer tires
Two-stage electronic stability control with a unique sport mode

I'm interested in what you come up with for one piece driveshaft for the V6 / Manual.
 
Not sure if this helps, but for 'stock' I've seen GT referenced here a bit, but no mention yet of V6 Performance Pack that was a 2012 factory option, if this helps you at all:

V-6 Perf. Pack comes with:

Shelby GT500 rear lower control arms
Mustang GT front struts and rear shocks and springs
Mustang GT coupe front and rear stabilizer bars
Mustang GT front and rear calipers w/ Performance Friction pads
Front strut tower brace
3.31:1 rear end ratio
19" wheels with Pirelli P-Zero 255/40-19 summer tires
Two-stage electronic stability control with a unique sport mode

I'm interested in what you come up with for one piece driveshaft for the V6 / Manual.

We did find and buy the aluminum 1-piece driveshaft. Not a cheap upgrade, but we thought it was mandatory for safety. Lethal Performance is where we got ours, I think...maybe a Dynotech brand?

We did use some of the V6 PP stuff...Shelby rear control arms, 3.31:1 gears, and front strut tower brace. We have not swapped sway bars or played with them yet...car handles very good as is right now, and we haven't gone to any HPDE days to do proper testing. That should change in June with the Mid-America Ford and Shelby meet at Hallett. I plan to bring some GT sway bars and test a few combinations.

Brakes are open, so we run Boss 302 Brembos in front with GLOC R18 pads. Vorshlag backing plates and 3" ducts off the lower grill. Rears are GT500 rotors and GLOC R10s. No complaints in the braking department...

We went to Daytona again this past weekend. Car ran a respectable 2:14.x on the road course once we had some clearer laps (i.e. the sketchy drivers had wrecked...so half the field was gone). Fastest cars were in the 2:10-2:12 range. I was running 2:21s pretty consistently in an early stint. We had 4 more drivers after me and I needed to really take care of the car, so that was granny shifting and staying well away from the sketchy drivers, which forced me to take some unique lines. Some of those guys just don't give a crap. Oh and AdvanceTrac wouldn't turn off before I got out there, so I was fighting the engine cuts and goofy braking trying to spin the car if I drove too hard. No sport mode in our car. We think we found a way to shut it off entirely with Forscan, so fingers crossed that works out.
 
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Fellow Champ Car team here. Building a Class D 2006 Mustang. Came from a Class B Hyundai.

FWIW, we are considering the Torsen as a standard GT part since the Track Pack was an option package and not a specialty model like the Bullitt, Boss 302 or GT500.

Are you in Class C or D? I was sure the V6 Mustangs would be battling it out with the E36's and E46's in the Class C section. Hope to get to race alongside you guys next year when we are done building ours.

What did you do for dampers/springs? Bilsteins?
 
Fellow Champ Car team here. Building a Class D 2006 Mustang. Came from a Class B Hyundai.

FWIW, we are considering the Torsen as a standard GT part since the Track Pack was an option package and not a specialty model like the Bullitt, Boss 302 or GT500.

Are you in Class C or D? I was sure the V6 Mustangs would be battling it out with the E36's and E46's in the Class C section. Hope to get to race alongside you guys next year when we are done building ours.

What did you do for dampers/springs? Bilsteins?

Howdy! Glad to see more Mustangs out there!

Here's my rub on the Torsen...if it was a part of a "package" for a car that's allowed in Champ, I think it would be allowed no issue/no points. As in, if the Torsen came equipped in any 05-10 Mustang GT or 05-14 Mustang V6 Track or Performance Package, I don't see any issue. But I could only find those Track Packages in the 11-14 GTs, which are not currently allowed in Champ. Have you found any info that they came in 05-10 GT or 05-14 Track Package?? That would be helpful if you had. We have a factory Torsen out of a Boss sitting unused right now.

We're in C Class, yes, so not directly competing with you. Not that we're much competition for the other C Class cars out there either lol.

Yes, Bilstein B6 at the recommendation of Terry Fair at Vorshlag. I can't argue, they seem to work very good. We're also running FRPP Boss 302 Lowering Springs.
 
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Howdy! Glad to see more Mustangs out there!

Here's my rub on the Torsen...if it was a part of a "package" for a car that's allowed in Champ, I think it would be allowed no issue/no points. As in, if the Torsen came equipped in any 05-10 Mustang GT or 05-14 Mustang V6 Track or Performance Package, I don't see any issue. But I could only find those Track Packages in the 11-14 GTs, which are not currently allowed in Champ. Have you found any info that they came in 05-10 GT or 05-14 Track Package?? That would be helpful if you had. We have a factory Torsen out of a Boss sitting unused right now.

We're in C Class, yes, so not directly competing with you. Not that we're much competition for the other C Class cars out there either lol.

Yes, Bilstein B6 at the recommendation of Terry Fair at Vorshlag. I can't argue, they seem to work very good. We're also running FRPP Boss 302 Lowering Springs.
There was nothing available for the 05-10 cars. Only 2011+ had the track package.

The 07-09 GT500 had the carbon clutch packs within the diff but that is about it. That is our direction now but was looking at the Torsen thinking it would be good to go(didnt realize the 2011+ cars arent listed yet).

Our VPI is 530 points starting. We planned on 650VPI total and trying to make up the laps during races. Seems that it might be an option if we have enough tire under the car(going for 275-295s on all 4 corners) and keeping the car in one piece.

How are you justifying getting the driveshaft for 0 points? On the tech sheet it shows IIRC 10 points for any driveshaft that isnt OEM. Claiming safety factor work?

Our point adds are as follows right now:
20 camber plates
25 intake runner(IMRC/CMCV) delete plates
10 one piece driveshaft
25 long tubes(trying to find stock manifolds to swap back on for 0 points)
10 engine mounts
10 adjustable track bar
20 front sway bar

I need to find OE log manifolds and an offroad H-pipe to get the 25 points back for the long tubes. I could put that 25 into something else or reduce the penalty laps.
 
There was nothing available for the 05-10 cars. Only 2011+ had the track package.

The 07-09 GT500 had the carbon clutch packs within the diff but that is about it. That is our direction now but was looking at the Torsen thinking it would be good to go(didnt realize the 2011+ cars arent listed yet).

Our VPI is 530 points starting. We planned on 650VPI total and trying to make up the laps during races. Seems that it might be an option if we have enough tire under the car(going for 275-295s on all 4 corners) and keeping the car in one piece.

How are you justifying getting the driveshaft for 0 points? On the tech sheet it shows IIRC 10 points for any driveshaft that isnt OEM. Claiming safety factor work?

Our point adds are as follows right now:
20 camber plates
25 intake runner(IMRC/CMCV) delete plates
10 one piece driveshaft
25 long tubes(trying to find stock manifolds to swap back on for 0 points)
10 engine mounts
10 adjustable track bar
20 front sway bar

I need to find OE log manifolds and an offroad H-pipe to get the 25 points back for the long tubes. I could put that 25 into something else or reduce the penalty laps.

We aren't, we're taking 10 points for the Driveshaft and 10 points for the Adjustable PHB. We're taking no points right now other than those (so 570 total, 7 laps down).

I'll tell you that I really don't think you're gonna make those laps up in the Mustang. I think you're gonna want to narrow down your modifications a bunch. From what I see...the LTs definitely won't gain you 2.5 laps, so for sure swap those back like you're thinking. I would say run factory engine mounts, too, unless there's just absolutely no way to creatively beef those up...you might be able to "reinforce" them with something. Like a band/strap. Idk if that's even doable, I haven't looked at 4.6 mounts before. But if it's torque that kills them, you could make a torque strap out of some sheet metal you cut out of the doors for 0 points. We have the factory 120,000 mile mounts in ours with no issues. I would dump the front sway bar, too. Find a bigger factory bar from a PP Mustang, maybe. But there's simply no sway bar out there that will net you a 2 lap gain over the course of the race. You can ditch the camber plates and slot the front struts for camber, but you will have to be careful with tire/wheel clearance. We have about a degree in ours right now, but we do have room for more. That's just what we ran at Daytona. That's with 315s all the way around (11" Apex 18x11 ET52).

Just my thoughts there, for whatever they're worth considering we aren't winning lol.
 
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We aren't, we're taking 10 points for the Driveshaft and 10 points for the Adjustable PHB. We're taking no points right now other than those (so 570 total, 7 laps down).

I'll tell you that I really don't think you're gonna make those laps up in the Mustang. I think you're gonna want to narrow down your modifications a bunch. From what I see...the LTs definitely won't gain you 2.5 laps, so for sure swap those back like you're thinking. I would say run factory engine mounts, too, unless there's just absolutely no way to creatively beef those up...you might be able to "reinforce" them with something. Like a band/strap. Idk if that's even doable, I haven't looked at 4.6 mounts before. But if it's torque that kills them, you could make a torque strap out of some sheet metal you cut out of the doors for 0 points. We have the factory 120,000 mile mounts in ours with no issues. I would dump the front sway bar, too. Find a bigger factory bar from a PP Mustang, maybe. But there's simply no sway bar out there that will net you a 2 lap gain over the course of the race. You can ditch the camber plates and slot the front struts for camber, but you will have to be careful with tire/wheel clearance. We have about a degree in ours right now, but we do have room for more. That's just what we ran at Daytona. That's with 315s all the way around (11" Apex 18x11 ET52).

Just my thoughts there, for whatever they're worth considering we aren't winning lol.
Are the V6 mounts hydraulic? The GT mounts are hydraulic and move causing terrible shifter alignment issues. Do you have any issues with shifting at high rpm?
Mounts on the car now are flat blown with fluid leaking all over the place. I wonder if i can pull them off and try to fill them with 3m window weld? We did that on our Hyundai and it worked very well. For $21 for a tube of window weld its a good deal.

I can delete the CMCV points by removing the butterflies and filling in the stock plates. Would save 3 laps.

The largest factory front bar for the 2005-2014 cars is the stock 34mm bar. They really didnt change it even on the GT500/Track Pack cars. It looks like they increased the rear bar from 20mm to 24mm on the GT500/Track Pack which i dont think we would want to do. Appreciate the advice and we will just leave the bars as is. Saves some pocket money.

Already have the camber plates so we are going to run them. We slotted the struts on the Hyundai at one point and that was a nightmare with slipping. Fixed with welded on washers but would rather not do that again. Did you drill the tower? or slot the upper strut mount?

We have a set of 18x9's and a set of 18x10's right now. Plan was 275s on the 9" and 295's on the 10" in the longest wearing enduro 200tw we can find - seems to be RS4 and NT05. Would love to run 18x11's but the budget wont allow for two sets of the Apex goodies.

So:
530 VPI = 3 laps
20 camber plates = 2 laps
10 driveshaft = 1 lap
10 panhard bar = 1 lap
7 laps total.

And you only run -1.0 of camber? How is tire wear?

EDIT: just realized your 2011 V6 is 550VPI to start?!? You got shafted worse than the 3 valve with the VPI change up.
 
Are the V6 mounts hydraulic? The GT mounts are hydraulic and move causing terrible shifter alignment issues. Do you have any issues with shifting at high rpm?
Mounts on the car now are flat blown with fluid leaking all over the place. I wonder if i can pull them off and try to fill them with 3m window weld? We did that on our Hyundai and it worked very well. For $21 for a tube of window weld its a good deal.

I can delete the CMCV points by removing the butterflies and filling in the stock plates. Would save 3 laps.

The largest factory front bar for the 2005-2014 cars is the stock 34mm bar. They really didnt change it even on the GT500/Track Pack cars. It looks like they increased the rear bar from 20mm to 24mm on the GT500/Track Pack which i dont think we would want to do. Appreciate the advice and we will just leave the bars as is. Saves some pocket money.

Already have the camber plates so we are going to run them. We slotted the struts on the Hyundai at one point and that was a nightmare with slipping. Fixed with welded on washers but would rather not do that again. Did you drill the tower? or slot the upper strut mount?

We have a set of 18x9's and a set of 18x10's right now. Plan was 275s on the 9" and 295's on the 10" in the longest wearing enduro 200tw we can find - seems to be RS4 and NT05. Would love to run 18x11's but the budget wont allow for two sets of the Apex goodies.

So:
530 VPI = 3 laps
20 camber plates = 2 laps
10 driveshaft = 1 lap
10 panhard bar = 1 lap
7 laps total.

And you only run -1.0 of camber? How is tire wear?

EDIT: just realized your 2011 V6 is 550VPI to start?!? You got shafted worse than the 3 valve with the VPI change up.

I'm not sure about the V6 engine mounts. I just looked them up and they appear to be hydro mounts though. Truthfully, we haven't put a moment's thought into them. We switched to an MGW shifter that mounts to the transmission instead of the floating style like you're talking about and haven't had any shifting issues.

We didn't touch the upper strut mounts at all. We just hogged the struts out, got the camber set, then put a small weld to where the bolt won't slip. It can still be ground off and readjusted as needed.

We run the Falken RT615k+. They wear extremely good for what we're doing. We ran 12/14 hours at Daytona (lost 3rd and 4th gears in our MT82) and the tires are still pretty good...outside shoulders are worn, but I can't get the team to put more camber in the car. They're scared it'll make it twitchy or unstable at speed.

Yeah, we're lobbying for a VPI change. I made a pretty strong case. I didn't know y'alls car got pushed back that far. When did that happen?
 
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I'm not sure about the V6 engine mounts. I just looked them up and they appear to be hydro mounts though. Truthfully, we haven't put a moment's thought into them. We switched to an MGW shifter that mounts to the transmission instead of the floating style like you're talking about and haven't had any shifting issues.

We didn't touch the upper strut mounts at all. We just hogged the struts out, got the camber set, then put a small weld to where the bolt won't slip. It can still be ground off and readjusted as needed.

We run the Falken RT615k+. They wear extremely good for what we're doing. We ran 12/14 hours at Daytona (lost 3rd and 4th gears in our MT82) and the tires are still pretty good...outside shoulders are worn, but I can't get the team to put more camber in the car. They're scared it'll make it twitchy or unstable at speed.

Yeah, we're lobbying for a VPI change. I made a pretty strong case. I didn't know y'alls car got pushed back that far. When did that happen?
Surprised they dont want to add more camber. Shouldnt be touchy? Wouldnt it flatten the outside front tire giving you more grip?

The trans is much different than the crap TR3650 we have in the 05-09 GT. Its remote mounted even with a short throw shifter. The MGW is what we were leaning toward for a shifter when the time comes.

I believe the S197 GT was revised this year. I think it used to be 450-475VPI prior to 2024. This year is 530 and really puts a burden on it. Its nuts that you get saddled with 550VPI to start. Wonder why the V6 got more VPI than the V8? Weight difference?

Whats next for you all?
 
Surprised they dont want to add more camber. Shouldnt be touchy? Wouldnt it flatten the outside front tire giving you more grip?

The trans is much different than the crap TR3650 we have in the 05-09 GT. Its remote mounted even with a short throw shifter. The MGW is what we were leaning toward for a shifter when the time comes.

I believe the S197 GT was revised this year. I think it used to be 450-475VPI prior to 2024. This year is 530 and really puts a burden on it. Its nuts that you get saddled with 550VPI to start. Wonder why the V6 got more VPI than the V8? Weight difference?

Whats next for you all?

You're absolutely correct on the adding more camber. I've presented every piece of evidence you could think of on why we should add more. They won't listen. So we're accepting the extra shoulder wear. I've given up on that argument.

That's nuts that y'alls got raised. I thought it used to be 475. That's part of why I am lobbying to have ours lowered to 450-475. They claimed when they added the car that they would adjust VPI based on performance, they just 'don't have any data on that car, yet; run a few races and see how it performs and they'd look at it'. The guy who told us that was the Executive Director (who then stepped down last year and isn't involved with the board anymore from what I can tell). We were the first 11-14 V6 to run since they finally added it to the VPI list.

I'm not really sure...although the car needs to go on a diet. It's 3384 lbs right now. We're planning to start cutting out the "excess" metal on the car and see what we can drop off.
 
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Id think the 3.7 and 4.6 3 valve are around the same weight/power with the V8 having slightly more torque. But maybe the V6 is lighter and equal power/fuel tank size would equate to a larger VPI. Im sure you will get farther on a tank than we will. Last car would go a full 2 hours before the gas light would start to flicker. Gave us a fighting chance against the ridiculously fast NC Miata's in Class B.

3384lbs doesnt seem excessively heavy for a race weight. What is the goal weight you are shooting for? Sub-3000?

Also, who did your cage? We went with an S&W custom bent kit on the last car and i wont do that again. Watson Racing and Track Spec have the 3d scanned cage kits that seem like a good option. I dont think they come with sill bars but everything else exceeds Champ requirements. We have a welder who is competent to install it. Might get us under $4k OTD for the cage installed versus $6000+ for a pro to custom bend one.
 

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Not enough negative camber is not just about excessive shoulder wear, the bigger issue is you're losing corner speed. There is an old adage in racing sedans that there is virtually no such thing as too much negative camber. There is, but it's well above -4 degrees. I've never had issues with twitchy cars and I've always run the maximum negative camber I could get. This goes back to 1989 for me, and nothing's changed today.
 
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Id think the 3.7 and 4.6 3 valve are around the same weight/power with the V8 having slightly more torque. But maybe the V6 is lighter and equal power/fuel tank size would equate to a larger VPI. Im sure you will get farther on a tank than we will. Last car would go a full 2 hours before the gas light would start to flicker. Gave us a fighting chance against the ridiculously fast NC Miata's in Class B.

3384lbs doesnt seem excessively heavy for a race weight. What is the goal weight you are shooting for? Sub-3000?

Also, who did your cage? We went with an S&W custom bent kit on the last car and i wont do that again. Watson Racing and Track Spec have the 3d scanned cage kits that seem like a good option. I dont think they come with sill bars but everything else exceeds Champ requirements. We have a welder who is competent to install it. Might get us under $4k OTD for the cage installed versus $6000+ for a pro to custom bend one.
Highly recommend the TrackSpec cage. They used my car to design the S197 kit, with emphasis on headroom for taller drivers. They put together a really nice YouTube video on the design process if you haven’t seen it yet.

 

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