Engine rebuild with new dimensions: install questions

[Voodoo Blues]

I've decided to mortgage everything of value for a custom, dream engine. The main points I'd like to discuss are the Dailey dry sump and InnoV8 individual throttle bodies that will change the overall dimensions, complicating the install. The block and heads will be original from my 2016 GT350, everything else will be custom. I'm looking for advice from anyone who has worked on these problems or knows someone who can offer expert help.

I'm hoping to lower the engine with the added bottom clearance the dry sump will provide. I'm considering both new engine mounts and the Steeda road race front K-member to achieve the lowering. Added to this problem are the American Racing headers that will need clearance considerations. It looks like the Steeda unit will help here. I guess if I can get engine mounts to lower a bit, the guys putting the car back together will have a compound problem. I don't know if the Steeda will be worth the extra costs of the part (about $1500) and the obvious added labor. There would be valuable added strength and weight loss though.

The ITBs will present not only hood clearance changes but strut tower clearance issues. The hood will definitely have new cut outs and vents for both clearance. My only regret here (other than more obvious costs) is that I really like the lines of the stock hood. I doubt the stock strut tower brace will clear the ITBs even with engine lowering. Probably no way around a custom brace -- we've all seen race cars do this -- unless someone can convince me a brace isn't needed. The Mustang GT4 has no brace but it has much more sophisticated struts and camber adjustment.

For those that haven't seen my mod details, they are Steeda lowering springs, sway bars, rear suspension links and bracing, and AP Racing brakes. Thanks for reading this far!

Brent

 

[mwjscn]

Given what you're setting out to do I assume you're going full race car, so here would be some things you may run into:
-Cable-driven ITBs won't allow you any idle air control, so systems like AC would need to be removed entirely since the compressor would add drag while on and make the engine bog/stall (since it's a race car just call this weight reduction). Looks like the dry pump system deletes the AC location anyways, so consider this checked off.
-You would also want to make sure you are tuning with someone very familiar with ITBs, since pulse tuning becomes critical for a well-tuned engine where they need to adjust the length of the intake trumpet to match the engine cylinder head characteristics (aka something pre-tuned for a Coyote cylinder head would likely need further development to work perfectly on a Voodoo). Throw any semblance of adjustable cam timing into the mix and it will lead to a lot of dyno testing time, so just be ready for that and the expense and time associated if you're looking for a great tune and not just an okay tune.
-You also will not have a source of vacuum from the manifold anymore, so PCV would have to be just a open engine bay filter element/vent to atmo and the brake booster won't function unless you add a vacuum pump (or just go full manual brakes). CCV would also be open to the engine bay without an intake tube so just put some sort of small filter on that as well, since you wouldn't want crud getting inside the engine.
-It also depends if you're doing open ITBs or ITBs in an airbox, since you can mount sensors in the airstream in the airbox for IATs and related for a more robust tune. If it's open ITBs just keep in mind you're trading potential power (hotter-than-OEM intake charge from an engine bay during racing conditions from headers and radiator/heat exchanger waste-air + potentially less tuning variables available for the ECU) and ease-of-use for sound, appeal, and potentially response if you have a cable-driven mechanism. If it was me, I'd at least cerakote the headers with a v-series.

I'm sure there are other considerations, but those are what I can think of.

 

[Voodoo Blues]

Given what you're setting out to do I assume you're going full race car, so here would be some things you may run into:
-Cable-driven ITBs won't allow you any idle air control, so systems like AC would need to be removed entirely since the compressor would add drag while on and make the engine bog/stall (since it's a race car just call this weight reduction). Looks like the dry pump system deletes the AC location anyways, so consider this checked off.
-You would also want to make sure you are tuning with someone very familiar with ITBs, since pulse tuning becomes critical for a well-tuned engine where they need to adjust the length of the intake trumpet to match the engine cylinder head characteristics (aka something pre-tuned for a Coyote cylinder head would likely need further development to work perfectly on a Voodoo). Throw any semblance of adjustable cam timing into the mix and it will lead to a lot of dyno testing time, so just be ready for that and the expense and time associated if you're looking for a great tune and not just an okay tune.
-You also will not have a source of vacuum from the manifold anymore, so PCV would have to be just a open engine bay filter element/vent to atmo and the brake booster won't function unless you add a vacuum pump (or just go full manual brakes). CCV would also be open to the engine bay without an intake tube so just put some sort of small filter on that as well, since you wouldn't want crud getting inside the engine.
-It also depends if you're doing open ITBs or ITBs in an airbox, since you can mount sensors in the airstream in the airbox for IATs and related for a more robust tune. If it's open ITBs just keep in mind you're trading potential power (hotter-than-OEM intake charge from an engine bay during racing conditions from headers and radiator/heat exchanger waste-air + potentially less tuning variables available for the ECU) and ease-of-use for sound, appeal, and potentially response if you have a cable-driven mechanism. If it was me, I'd at least cerakote the headers with a v-series.

I'm sure there are other considerations, but those are what I can think of.

Thanks, that's a lot of good info, a lot of fine points. I should have mentioned a couple of other key things on the custom engine (and I'm sure more as other detailed considerations arise).

The new 5.5 liter engine will have a cross plane crank to hopefully solve all the vibration issues at sustained high rpm. My current issue is the spin-on oil filter (on most '16 and '17 Voodoos) vibrates off about every 2-3000 miles. Hence the start of the dry sump idea.

The other major item I left out is the new engine will be controlled by the apparently fabulous MoTeC M150 designed for the S550. I did not consider ITBs possible unless constantly tuned by a very good mechanic, which of course I'm not even close. There will be an air box over the trumpets. Unfortunately their beauty has to be clothed. I'm embarrassed I don't know how the MoTeC gets the info it needs to control the ITBs. I think a servo controls the butterflies. The builder will do initial fuel mapping and tune on the dyno. When the engine is back in the car it can be tuned remotely. Oh, and the builder has experience with ITBs on the Coyote and has chosen the appropriate length for my particular build. I did consider the lack of vacuum for the brake booster at an earlier point but it has since left my mind in all the excitement. This is why I need contributors like you.

I can't see anything the MoTeC won't control including cam timing. We consider the VCT indispensable for my use. It will not be full race car though it will be tracked some. I know an engine like this doesn't make sense in a car driven on the street, but when do us half mad drivers make sense? Mostly for me only when I really have to. There is discussion with Dailey about keeping the AC, which apparently the Coyote designed system is able to keep. And the MoTeC with adaptive harness, riding piggy back on the stock harness, can control all the ancillary car functions to be compatible including AC. Though I was and still am prepared to drop the AC. Like you say, great weight savings!

 

[mwjscn]

My current issue is the spin-on oil filter (on most '16 and '17 Voodoos) vibrates off about every 2-3000 miles. Hence the start of the dry sump idea.

While I'm sure everyone is searching for reasons to justify their madman builds (myself included), if this was the only primary concern you can either 1. install a remote oil filter kit so the filter is more detached from the engine harmonics or 2. add a hose clamp around the filter body and attach safety wire on the clamp to a fixed location on the engine to keep it from rotating. While neither option is as cool as a dry sump, they would be significantly easier to implement and less expensive on a dual-duty vehicle. Not trying to talk you out of it, but wanted to present alternative options to fix the issue.

 

[blacksheep-1]

Before you go nuts, it's true the GT4 program uses a dry sump,but the old Boss 302s in IMSA ( then Grand Am) were all wet sumps, ran an Accusump for insurance, but those engines were .020 with Manley rods and aftermarket ( I forget who) valve springs, later they got upgraded oil pump gears, but not much else, so spend your money wisely.

 

[Voodoo Blues]

While I'm sure everyone is searching for reasons to justify their madman builds (myself included), if this was the only primary concern you can either 1. install a remote oil filter kit so the filter is more detached from the engine harmonics or 2. add a hose clamp around the filter body and attach safety wire on the clamp to a fixed location on the engine to keep it from rotating. While neither option is as cool as a dry sump, they would be significantly easier to implement and less expensive on a dual-duty vehicle. Not trying to talk you out of it, but wanted to present alternative options to fix the issue.

View attachment 82735

That is the best pic of clamping with safety wire that I've seen. Thanks. I've tried both your suggested solutions. The clamp was too tight and cut ever so slightly into the filter. It didn't start a fine spraying of oil until I was ten miles down the highway. I noticed a brown cloud behind me and thought it was another vehicle. Then it hit me -- oh shiznit. I got to a gas station and had it towed. Pissed me off enough to not try again. Then I researched filter relocation. I ended buy a pretty red anodized kit from MMR, assured after multiple communications that it would work for my 2016. But it does not incorporate the oil cooler lines. Actually I blame mostly myself but still think MMR should have asked this question. Surely they know most GT350s have oil coolers. Ugh. I'm the type that wants the best, not biggest, loudest or most expensive, just the best. Like when it was taking Ford forever to get my brake rotors I decided to go all out on AP Racing brakes. The front system saved a whopping 15 lbs unsprung weight per side! Of course expensive. Now it feels like I went from boots to sneakers. A best solution for me. But like I said, I'm living beyond my means.

 

[Voodoo Blues]

Before you go nuts, it's true the GT4 program uses a dry sump,but the old Boss 302s in IMSA ( then Grand Am) were all wet sumps, ran an Accusump for insurance, but those engines were .020 with Manley rods and aftermarket ( I forget who) valve springs, later they got upgraded oil pump gears, but not much else, so spend your money wisely.

Absolutely good advice. I know a sound wet sump system will work for anything I will do with the car. Very unlikely I'll be running endurance racing without a true race car. And I've seen some guys with the Accusump. Clever insurance.

 

[blacksheep-1]

Absolutely good advice. I know a sound wet sump system will work for anything I will do with the car. Very unlikely I'll be running endurance racing without a true race car. And I've seen some guys with the Accusump. Clever insurance.

IMO, a wet sump with a good scraper and scavenger scheme is superior to a dry sump with a poor one, so if you go dry, make sure you go the full route.

 

[Voodoo Blues]

That is the best pic of clamping with safety wire that I've seen. Thanks. I've tried both your suggested solutions. The clamp was too tight and cut ever so slightly into the filter. It didn't start a fine spraying of oil until I was ten miles down the highway. I noticed a brown cloud behind me and thought it was another vehicle. Then it hit me -- oh shiznit. I got to a gas station and had it towed. Pissed me off enough to not try again. Then I researched filter relocation. I ended buy a pretty red anodized kit from MMR, assured after multiple communications that it would work for my 2016. But it does not incorporate the oil cooler lines. Actually I blame mostly myself but still think MMR should have asked this question. Surely they know most GT350s have oil coolers. Ugh. I'm the type that wants the best, not biggest, loudest or most expensive, just the best. Like when it was taking Ford forever to get my brake rotors I decided to go all out on AP Racing brakes. The front system saved a whopping 15 lbs unsprung weight per side! Of course expensive. Now it feels like I went from boots to sneakers. A best solution for me. But like I said, I'm living beyond my means.

PS: I just glanced at my reply and it changed my word "shiznit" to "shiznit." I would never say that!

 

[Voodoo Blues]

IMO, a wet sump with a good scraper and scavenger scheme is superior to a dry sump with a poor one, so if you go dry, make sure you go the full route.

Right. I would use Dailey Engineering.

 

[Voodoo Blues]

PS: I just glanced at my reply and it changed my word "shiznit" to "shiznit." I would never say that!

PPS: It did it again. Must be built into TMO system to auto correct cursing.

 

[blacksheep-1]

Not sure what the Gt4 uses, has a Ford homologation number on it, try Multimatic?

 

[mwjscn]

I ended buy a pretty red anodized kit from MMR, assured after multiple communications that it would work for my 2016. But it does not incorporate the oil cooler lines.

They have this diagram on the site for how to route the system. It's very likely they assume their customer base are going to use an aftermarket oil cooler with AN tank fittings and then make their own lines to length, since it seems like the kit they offer (MMR-403335) just has a spool of uncut hose and a handful of AN fittings. If all you got was MMR-703335 they do say on the page that it isn't a full relocation kit and customer-provided parts or their own kit would be required for a full system. You may be able to use the opportunity to upgrade to a more robust oil heat exchanger than what was included from the factory.

 

[Voodoo Blues]

They have this diagram on the site for how to route the system. It's very likely they assume their customer base are going to use an aftermarket oil cooler with AN tank fittings and then make their own lines to length, since it seems like the kit they offer (MMR-403335) just has a spool of uncut hose and a handful of AN fittings. If all you got was MMR-703335 they do say on the page that it isn't a full relocation kit and customer-provided parts or their own kit would be required for a full system. You may be able to use the opportunity to upgrade to a more robust oil heat exchanger than what was included from the factory.

View attachment 82739

You're right, I could update to a more robust cooler. I wasn't very clear about what didn't work. I got two part numbers (don't have them in front of me), (1) the piece that fits to the stock spin-on mount and (2) the filter holder with filter, lines to cut to fit, and AN fittings. The problem is that part 1 doesn't have provision for the stock cooler lines as the OEM does. A call to MMR during attempted install confirmed that they were still working on a piece to directly accommodate the OEM cooler set up. So I should have triple checked. I remember this diagram though, good straight forward instructions.

 

[mwjscn]

I did do some poking around and found a neat little product that may help you. It looks like there's a company that creates fittings that adapt the stock Shelby GT350 oil cooler provisions to -10 AN. You'd still need to run custom lines following the MMR diagram, but it would save you the cost and complexity of purchasing an aftermarket heat exchanger and trying to mount it in the OEM location. They have a bespoke product with a bespoke price, but the value may be in the convenience of the solution. If you still want to use a remote filter, you'd only need the oil-cooler-side adaptors, so you may want to reach out and see if they'd be willing to sell you just those for a lower price.

TK Autosports - Feature

TK Autosports with extensive performance upgrades, quality maintenance, racing gear, track-side support, secure vehicle storage and plenty of parts, we have the skills and resources that fit your automotive needs and dreams.

www.tkautosports.com

More detail on how they install:

TK Autosports - GT350 Oil Line Installation

TK Autosports with extensive performance upgrades, quality maintenance, racing gear, track-side support, secure vehicle storage and plenty of parts, we have the skills and resources that fit your automotive needs and dreams.

www.tkautosports.com

 

[honeybadger]

Dailey builds the GT4 Dry sump. Solid unit. I have one I plan to install.

Who is building the 5.5 motor?

 

[Voodoo Blues]

Not sure what the Gt4 uses, has a Ford homologation number on it, try Multimatic?

View attachment 82736

View attachment 82737

This is valuable info. Interesting the tank at 8 quarts plus the 2 quarts in circulation equal stock 10 quarts. I wonder if that is one of the little rules for classes the GT4 runs? I think I'll check on the bespoke pan source. If Multimatic doesn't do it in house I'll bet it's Dailey Engineering.

 

[Voodoo Blues]

I did do some poking around and found a neat little product that may help you. It looks like there's a company that creates fittings that adapt the stock Shelby GT350 oil cooler provisions to -10 AN. You'd still need to run custom lines following the MMR diagram, but it would save you the cost and complexity of purchasing an aftermarket heat exchanger and trying to mount it in the OEM location. They have a bespoke product with a bespoke price, but the value may be in the convenience of the solution. If you still want to use a remote filter, you'd only need the oil-cooler-side adaptors, so you may want to reach out and see if they'd be willing to sell you just those for a lower price.

TK Autosports - Feature

TK Autosports with extensive performance upgrades, quality maintenance, racing gear, track-side support, secure vehicle storage and plenty of parts, we have the skills and resources that fit your automotive needs and dreams.

www.tkautosports.com

More detail on how they install:

TK Autosports - GT350 Oil Line Installation

TK Autosports with extensive performance upgrades, quality maintenance, racing gear, track-side support, secure vehicle storage and plenty of parts, we have the skills and resources that fit your automotive needs and dreams.

www.tkautosports.com

Wow, thanks for going out of your way for me!

 

[blacksheep-1]

Also, you will want to become friends with these guys, they make all sorts of bizarre adaptors and fittings as well.

High-Performance Plumbing | Pegasus Auto Racing Supplies

We carry the parts, fittings, and equipment you need to plumb your race car. In-stock parts from the best names in competition plumbing products.

www.pegasusautoracing.com

 

[Voodoo Blues]

Dailey builds the GT4 Dry sump. Solid unit. I have one I plan to install.

Who is building the 5.5 motor?

I thought it would be Dailey, it looks like it in the pic Blacksheep sent. I did see the great photos of pretty aluminum you posted when your Christmas present from Dailey arrived.

The 5.5 is being built by Esslinger Engineering. Brian Axup is the manager. He has been nothing but a near profound guide and font of experience and sound engineering judgement. He is thorough and disciplined. I looked at many other builders, including ones mentioned in these threads, all with merits. Ultimately Esslinger won out because of overall engine building experience and lack of noise or unfounded enthusiasm. Highly recommended.