S550 Honey Badger GT350 Build Build Thread Profile - S550 Mustangs

[honeybadger]

Got the AN hard lines in last night for the air system. 3/8 AL tubing using tube nuts and collars wrapped in a fire sleeve for abrasion protection.




I still need to secure them to the chassis - waiting on clamps from Summit.
Here's a close up of how they fit.

37 degree single flare with a collar and tube nut

 

[JAJ]

Got the AN hard lines in last night for the air system. 3/8 AL tubing using tube nuts and collars wrapped in a fire sleeve for abrasion protection.

View attachment 89173
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I still need to secure them to the chassis - waiting on clamps from Summit.
Here's a close up of how they fit.

37 degree single flare with a collar and tube nut

View attachment 89176View attachment 89177

Wow! That looks great! Well done!

A couple of thoughts came to me when I was looking at the work. First, when securing to the chassis, think about providing some isolation from the chassis vibrations. Aluminum loves to fatigue. Second, single flares are not as secure as double. You wouldn't use them on brake lines, for instance. For high-pressure air, probably ok, but you might need some of these if leaks develop: https://secoseals.com/aerospace/seco7/ I've used the copper ones for years to make sure brake fittings never leak. The aluminum version would be better for aluminum on aluminum joints.

 

[honeybadger]

Wow! That looks great! Well done!

A couple of thoughts came to me when I was looking at the work. First, when securing to the chassis, think about providing some isolation from the chassis vibrations. Aluminum loves to fatigue. Second, single flares are not as secure as double. You wouldn't use them on brake lines, for instance. For high-pressure air, probably ok, but you might need some of these if leaks develop: https://secoseals.com/aerospace/seco7/ I've used the copper ones for years to make sure brake fittings never leak. The aluminum version would be better for aluminum on aluminum joints.

Interesting you bring up brake lines. All of my motorsport brake stuff (pedal box, Bosch ABS, etc) uses 3an or 4an. So I've been trying to figure out how to tackle the hard lines and I read "never use single flare," but I'm also reading single flare with AN is more than adequate. It's what they use in the aircraft industry - so what's the deal? Well, from what I can tell, the double-flare is meant to address the problems of the cheaper tubing used by OEMs - which has a seam going down it. The double flare helps resist the seam cracking and causing an issue.

But the higher motorsport grade stuff is seamless, so the issue doesn't apply (supposedly). The other interesting thing is that I've read in multiple areas that the SAE 45 double flare is not meant to disassembled/re-assembled consistently. It's mean to set and forget - which is why race teams move to AN fittings for the brakes.

To add even further confusion - I've been told by numerous shops that build race cars they use nickel copper lines with steel AN fittings and a single flare. Do not recommend double flare as the AN fittings weren't designed for it.

 

[honeybadger]

Here's a 37 degree single vs double flare




I don't have the tube nut and collar yet to see fitment against these test flares...curious to see how it looks when those come in

 

[dragoon]

@honeybadger
Your build is way above my pay grade !!! Love the photos showing the progress, nice thread to follow.

 

[JAJ]

Here's a 37 degree single vs double flare

View attachment 89203
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I don't have the tube nut and collar yet to see fitment against these test flares...curious to see how it looks when those come in

The only reasons I see for the double flare are improved strength in the flare itself - the "outer" flare reinforces the "inner flare" and it also gives the flare more depth so the nut sits further back along the tube.

But, I'm not an engineer, so it may all be something else, or nonsense. Hard to tell. In any case, SECO7 seals are magic. If there are no leaks, great, but I did a batch of plumbing recently (for water and air both at 60 PSI in an application that had to hold steady pressure for months) using -3AN fittings and the fittings were ruthless when it came to leaks. Them cute little gaskets fixed it all right up...

 

[Dave_W]

In the Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook, (aka Screw To Win) Carroll Smith writes regarding flaring hard line for use with (37 degree) AN fittings,

Aluminum tubing should be double flared in diamaters up to and including 3/8 in., and single flared in larger diamaters; double flares are not necessary in stainless steel.​

@honeybadger I think you're deep enough into fabrication at this point that you would really enjoy this book, if you don't already have it. I'd say since you've already installed it, and 3/8 AL is the edge case for Smith, put a stamp on it and send it.

 

[honeybadger]

The only reasons I see for the double flare are improved strength in the flare itself - the "outer" flare reinforces the "inner flare" and it also gives the flare more depth so the nut sits further back along the tube.

But, I'm not an engineer, so it may all be something else, or nonsense. Hard to tell. In any case, SECO7 seals are magic. If there are no leaks, great, but I did a batch of plumbing recently (for water and air both at 60 PSI in an application that had to hold steady pressure for months) using -3AN fittings and the fittings were ruthless when it came to leaks. Them cute little gaskets fixed it all right up...

Interesting. Did you use the same collar and nut design? Or did you use the compression fittings? Sounds like the collar and nuts, but wanted to double check. Thanks for the lead on the SEC07 seals. I hadn't seen these yet. Will order a few in various sizes to have on hand.

In the Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook, (aka Screw To Win) Carroll Smith writes regarding flaring hard line for use with (37 degree) AN fittings,

Aluminum tubing should be double flared in diamaters up to and including 3/8 in., and single flared in larger diamaters; double flares are not necessary in stainless steel.​

@honeybadger I think you're deep enough into fabrication at this point that you would really enjoy this book, if you don't already have it. I'd say since you've already installed it, and 3/8 AL is the edge case for Smith, put a stamp on it and send it.

I haven't read this, but I ordered a copy. Thanks for the recommendation. I am plumbing the entire car with AN, so this will be super helpful.

I am going with crimped BMRS for the flexible lines and fittings, so I think i'll be in good shape there. A lot less for me to screw up since they do the crimping for you.

 

[JAJ]

Interesting. Did you use the same collar and nut design? Or did you use the compression fittings? Sounds like the collar and nuts, but wanted to double check. Thanks for the lead on the SEC07 seals. I hadn't seen these yet. Will order a few in various sizes to have on hand.


I haven't read this, but I ordered a copy. Thanks for the recommendation. I am plumbing the entire car with AN, so this will be super helpful.

I am going with crimped BMRS for the flexible lines and fittings, so I think i'll be in good shape there. A lot less for me to screw up since they do the crimping for you.

In all my various projects, mostly brakes over the last 10+ years, I source pre-made lines and fittings as much as possible. I've put together a -3AN compression fitting exactly once, and that was on an adapter for bleeding brakes, not on an actual brake line. As for hard line stuff, I've always found a way to avoid using it, so I'm profoundly inexperienced with it.

 

[honeybadger]

So interestingly enough, I read through the AN section of Carrol Smith's book tonight and he mentions only using single flares in his hydraulic lines. He only recommends double flare in the AL lines like @Dave_W mentioned above.

I'll be using single flares on this system, I think. Given my test fit, I am much more comfortable with how much contact area there is on a single flare vs. double and the single is reinforced by the tubing sleeve.

 

[honeybadger]

Made some more progress. Started working on the rear end install with the Penskes



Nothing particularly novel back here - but I did end up buying all new wheel hubs. Original hubs I was using from OP Mustang were starting to show some wear that I didn't want to take a chance with given the brand new build.



So I ordered a new set of hubs from OP Mustang with GT4 studs. I also installed @AJ Hartman's e-brake spacer delete



I also have mounted the ECU, PDM, and ABS module. I didn't want them on the floor given that I often have passengers and didn't want someone's feet to accidentally push on their mounts or the wiring.



Keeping the ABS in the cabin made mounting both PDM and ECU on the trans tunnel difficult, so I went with mounting the PDM on the dry sump enclosure



Now I can get started on brake line plumbing and start playing with wiring

 

[JAJ]

Made some more progress. Started working on the rear end install with the Penskes

View attachment 89498

Nothing particularly novel back here - but I did end up buying all new wheel hubs. Original hubs I was using from OP Mustang were starting to show some wear that I didn't want to take a chance with given the brand new build.

View attachment 89502

So I ordered a new set of hubs from OP Mustang with GT4 studs. I also installed @AJ Hartman's e-brake spacer delete

View attachment 89504

I also have mounted the ECU, PDM, and ABS module. I didn't want them on the floor given that I often have passengers and didn't want someone's feet to accidentally push on their mounts or the wiring.

View attachment 89503

Keeping the ABS in the cabin made mounting both PDM and ECU on the trans tunnel difficult, so I went with mounting the PDM on the dry sump enclosure

View attachment 89501

Now I can get started on brake line plumbing and start playing with wiring

Have you mounted a brake rotor and a tire/rim combo to make sure that the Penske upper spring cup and that protruding mounting nut won't interfere with the rear tire? A few years back I had scuffing of the inner sidewall against the OEM shock mount with Pirelli Trofeo R 325's on OEM ET62 rims. That spring cup looks like it sticks out quite a ways at just about the right height...

 

[honeybadger]

Have you mounted a brake rotor and a tire/rim combo to make sure that the Penske upper spring cup and that protruding mounting nut won't interfere with the rear tire? A few years back I had scuffing of the inner sidewall against the OEM shock mount with Pirelli Trofeo R 325's on OEM ET62 rims. That spring cup looks like it sticks out quite a ways at just about the right height...

I haven't yet - but this is Cortex's Penske setup for the GT350, so it should work. I know a couple others running the setup. Will know in a couple weeks either way. Just waiting on some SPL arms for the front so I can mount those knuckles and the coilovers (doing a 2020R knuckle swap). Once I have that, I can finally put it on the ground

 

[Tonymustang302]

2020 R knuckle? Porkay? Them are back ordered with no ETA

 

[JAJ]

I haven't yet - but this is Cortex's Penske setup for the GT350, so it should work. I know a couple others running the setup. Will know in a couple weeks either way. Just waiting on some SPL arms for the front so I can mount those knuckles and the coilovers (doing a 2020R knuckle swap). Once I have that, I can finally put it on the ground

Here's hoping it all fits. Why bother with 2020 GT500 knuckles? I thought the only reason they existed was to enable GT500 owners to install GT350 front brakes so they could use 19" rims?

 

[honeybadger]

2020 R knuckle? Porkay? Them are back ordered with no ETA

Here's hoping it all fits. Why bother with 2020 GT500 knuckles? I thought the only reason they existed was to enable GT500 owners to install GT350 front brakes so they could use 19" rims?

From my digging around and talking to a few folks, they offer superior geometry and have improved grip. My take is that Ford built the 2020 350R knuckles for two reasons -

1. So GT500 owners could run 350 brakes and 19in wheels
2. So GT350 owners could get the improve suspension geometry

We'll see.. I don't have proof - just what I've been told. Not sure I'll be able to provide definitive feedback given all of the other changes I have made. But the larger GT500 studs for the front arms will be a nice piece of mind regardless.

Edit: regarding timing, I ordered from an online parts giant and they took 6 weeks to ship

 

[honeybadger]

 

[honeybadger]

Made some progress on the brake line install. As mentioned previously, I wanted to run hardlines as much as possible per the Bosch documentation and personal experience (braided lines need to be replaced every few years).

pedal box is an underfoot tilton 600 series 2 pedal box. As you can see, re-using the ford electronic throttle pedal and then using the tilton for brake and clutch. Two master cylinders for brakes - one for front and one for rear. This allows for bias adjustment via a remote adjustment knob. Also some nice redundancy so you don't lose all brakes if one line burst.

The black hose is 4an coming from the resevoirs. The 2 hard lines go to the input to the Bosch M5 ABS. Not shown are two braided lines that will go to the pressure sensors for the ABS unit.



Reservoir is under the dash. Wont be super fun to fill, but better than taking up space in the engine bay


ABS unit has hardlines coming out of the top. Order is Left front, Front Right, Rear Left, and Rear Right - so had to cross the lines a bit.



The front left and rears come through a bulkhead where the OEM chassis harness goes through the firewall


Passenger side couldn't utilize the same spot due to the dry sump. Plan is to snake it between the hole seen in the picture


Next up I need to run custom lines from all the bulkheads. I planned to utilize the OEM rear lines, but they refuse to be flared in a way I am comfortable with. And when mixed with some rough fitment around the air jacks, I think I am just going to make custom lines with tighter fitment. And I'll be confident in the flares using the Nickel Copper lines.

 

[honeybadger]

Made some more progress today. I plan to do a full write up on BMRS at a later point and why I chose their fittings/hoses, but that will come later.

In the meantime, fuel cell area is plumbed and the lines ready to be sent off to BMRS for crimping.



Flow is as follows:

8an from surge tank to filter

1. 8an from filter to regulator
2. 6an return from regulator to fuel cell
3. 6an to bulkhead

Not yet done, there will be a short 6an line over the IRS and will connection to a 3/8 hardline that will run under the car. Then another 6an from hardline to fuel rail in the engine bay.

In the engine bay, I got started on oiling. 12 an supply from the dry sump runs behind/under the motor and up to the oil filter/thermostat combo.




Oil filter/thermostat runs 12an back to the motor utilizing the IN (top fitting) on the side of block. It also runs a supply and return to the massive oil cooler. Supply is on the bottom, return on the top.



Still needed on the oil front is the 16an scavenge to dry sump tank, 16an return to pump, 12an air/oil seperator from pump to oil tank, and 12an oil tank to breather. Waiting on fttings and lines for that, though.

While monkeying around in the garage tonight I was able to fit the headers. Rut row.

headers are lowest part of the car even when adjusted to tuck up into the body as much as possible. With the engine, trans, and diff all solid mounted - there's no give if (when) it kisses a kerb. ugh

 

[dragoon]

It’s a good thing that not all kerbs are constructed the same. The ones that go “brrrrraaaappppp” are fine for me but the ones that set off air bags on cars like mine, not so much. At the drivers meeting at Road America, they warn you about the risks of “playing on the kerbs” especially about the new aggressive ones they put in at the “kink” !! @honeybadger , you’re in a different pay scale than me so I think you’ll be fine with your new build.