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Huge brake upgrade for S197 chassis

steveespo

Lord knows I'm a Voodoo Child
Moderator
3,874
1,529
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W2W Racing
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10-20 Years
Cookeville TN
My concern isn't just the long pedal but also reports of an inconsistent pedal. I read about the first press of the pedal being long but then it might or might not pick up at a higher or different spot on a second quick application.... that kind of inconsistent feedback and lack of precision sounds tricky and sort of annoying especially if you're in the midst of a downshift. I can see how the tradeoff is worth it for reduced fade in a full-tilt race car but for my purposes it doesn't sound worth the aggravation.

BTW it's nice to see the honest and objective feedback on this this mod in this thread. The lack of confirmation bias is refreshing.
Honestly the best way to use these brakes in a advanced track or race situation is to double tap into the high speed brake zones. I had no issue with consistency, that would be a function of pad compound and temps. The travel is longer for a given pressure because of the stated piston volume vs the master cylinder output volume. Tapping the pedal takes up the knockback of the pads enough that the pedal then engages at a higher point during the braking event. I found it only really needed at the ends of high speed straights where braking deltas were -50 mph or more. In lighter brake applications pump up wasn't needed or timely. This is not ideal, but compared to the stock 4 piston Brembos or 2 piston floaters on a S197 these brakes are a big upgrade.
 
1,168
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In the V6L
Honestly the best way to use these brakes in a advanced track or race situation is to double tap into the high speed brake zones. I had no issue with consistency, that would be a function of pad compound and temps. The travel is longer for a given pressure because of the stated piston volume vs the master cylinder output volume. Tapping the pedal takes up the knockback of the pads enough that the pedal then engages at a higher point during the braking event. I found it only really needed at the ends of high speed straights where braking deltas were -50 mph or more. In lighter brake applications pump up wasn't needed or timely. This is not ideal, but compared to the stock 4 piston Brembos or 2 piston floaters on a S197 these brakes are a big upgrade.
That's where I was going to go too - the pedal shouldn't feel that different with only a 10% increase in piston area, but if you've got knockback, then you'll feel it a lot more because you've got more fluid to move to restore contact between the pads and the rotors.
 
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When I do this upgrade, I plan to replace the master cylinder as well, but it doesn't sound like anyone has done this. Why not?
Hopefully others will jump in with more detail but I think it's a surprisingly big job. I recall an old thread about it, pretty sure it involves replacing the pedal box and other significant mods.

EDIT - "old thread" is this thread lol, post #185, p. 10 has some more detail about replacing the master cylinder.
 
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3
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Under 3 Years
California
So I just wrapped up my brake install and I was wondering if my brake pedal travel is normal or not?

Right now the pedal is simulator light until the brake pedal is slightly lower than the gas pedal. At that point, it firms up nicely. Pedal doesn't drop when holding heavy pressure both engine on or off. I didn't see any fluid getting pushed back into the master cylinder reservoir either so I think that master cylinder is okay. Additionally, I bled about 2 liters through the system including several Forscan ABS bleed with the bleeders open and closed and it got a little better but is still quite soft.

I knew to expect some travel elongation due to the master sizing but was just curious if mine was excessive and should be cause for concern?
 
So I just wrapped up my brake install and I was wondering if my brake pedal travel is normal or not?

Right now the pedal is simulator light until the brake pedal is slightly lower than the gas pedal. At that point, it firms up nicely. Pedal doesn't drop when holding heavy pressure both engine on or off. I didn't see any fluid getting pushed back into the master cylinder reservoir either so I think that master cylinder is okay. Additionally, I bled about 2 liters through the system including several Forscan ABS bleed with the bleeders open and closed and it got a little better but is still quite soft.

I knew to expect some travel elongation due to the master sizing but was just curious if mine was excessive and should be cause for concern?
Are you sure its just not the pads retracting? Pump the pedal up, how does it feel? Pedal travel vs. Pedal firmness are very different.
 
22
26
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HPDE
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Under 3 Years
South Carolina
Not sure what you have going on there but it should not look like that. Either the hardware or pads are not allowing things to line up properly.
ALSO: When installing these parts install the top pin first with the clip, THEN you can compress the clip to slide in the lower pin. I think you may be trying to install the clip after installing the pins.
View attachment 82522
Thanks, Tim. That's exactly how I installed the clips. I'm beginning to think that the backing plate on the Hawk pads may be slightly different from OEM. Or, I was dumb and ordered the wrong pads (GT500 vice S550 PP, or 2013 vice 2015) like I did with the rotors.
 
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159
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Colorado Springs
Alright all, Im stumped. Took the car in a while ago as the ABS/traction control was disabled. All the lights on (including e-brake) lights are on. Car brakes just fine until ABS should kick in, then it doesn't and they lock up. Shop thought they fixed it, I picked it up and drove it 15? miles last night / today and all the ABS/TC lights came back on and ABS is disabled..... This was the second time I took it in ]for this issue. First time in, we replaced the ABS controller, that doesn't seem to be the issue. This started after I did the stock to Brembo swap.

Has anyone had this happen? Post swap, all your ABS/TC is electronically disabled; we can use a sensor and reset, but it will simply disable and throw all the codes after driving for some unspecified time.

Im not even sure where to start at this point.
 
Alright all, Im stumped. Took the car in a while ago as the ABS/traction control was disabled. All the lights on (including e-brake) lights are on. Car brakes just fine until ABS should kick in, then it doesn't and they lock up. Shop thought they fixed it, I picked it up and drove it 15? miles last night / today and all the ABS/TC lights came back on and ABS is disabled..... This was the second time I took it in ]for this issue. First time in, we replaced the ABS controller, that doesn't seem to be the issue. This started after I did the stock to Brembo swap.

Has anyone had this happen? Post swap, all your ABS/TC is electronically disabled; we can use a sensor and reset, but it will simply disable and throw all the codes after driving for some unspecified time.

Im not even sure where to start at this point.
Perhaps you damaged a wheel speed sensor and the car isn’t seeing wheel speed so it throws the errors?
 

Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
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3,740
Santiago, Chile
Alright all, Im stumped. Took the car in a while ago as the ABS/traction control was disabled. All the lights on (including e-brake) lights are on. Car brakes just fine until ABS should kick in, then it doesn't and they lock up. Shop thought they fixed it, I picked it up and drove it 15? miles last night / today and all the ABS/TC lights came back on and ABS is disabled..... This was the second time I took it in ]for this issue. First time in, we replaced the ABS controller, that doesn't seem to be the issue. This started after I did the stock to Brembo swap.

Has anyone had this happen? Post swap, all your ABS/TC is electronically disabled; we can use a sensor and reset, but it will simply disable and throw all the codes after driving for some unspecified time.

Im not even sure where to start at this point.
Check the wiring to the sensors as well. Had a damaged sensor wire that caused the same issues you are having
 
202
159
Exp. Type
Autocross
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
Colorado Springs
Check the wiring to the sensors as well. Had a damaged sensor wire that caused the same issues you are having


It' s like what @kevo_lo was getting at, electrical connection. The entire rest of the upgrade was hard parts... May just replace the sensors and wires as at home next step, but they are stock on all 4 corners. Bad connection at the clip maybe? @Mad Hatter , what device is needed to reset the error code? Im thinking the SCT Tuner (haven't open box) will allow me to read and reset codes.

Is there any reason the bigger brakes would be messing with the computer? The sensors ignore the size of the brakes and just measure relative wheel spin across the 4 corners right? I was braking and pulling up to a stop sign leaving the gas station when they went off yesterday.

Did you just get stock replacements?
 

Mad Hatter

Gotta go Faster
4,882
3,740
Santiago, Chile
For error codes I use either the torque app with a Bluetooth obd, or my SCT. If it is a wiring issue, it will pop up again right away I think. It should not be the mechanical parts of the brakes. Almost 100% sure that it will be a wiring problem. Have seen dozens of S550 Brembo upgrades and not never seen any OBD error issues. With my Boss I still run the stock ABS configuration as it never gave me any reason to change it.

EDIT: Just noticed that you have a 2008... to be honest have only seen the swap on 2011+ Coyote and V6 S197's and S550's. Not at all sure how the older computer will do.. sorry.
 
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I have a 2008 with this same upgrade with no issues. Countless others have done the same. Just have to start poking around and identify the problem.

Start with the sensors and wiring. Make sure the tips of the wheel speed sensors aren’t caked with ferrous dust from pad/disc material. Clean them off. Make sure there’s no wire breaks or insulation damage causing a short. Make sure the connector bodies aren’t damaged, maybe the locking tab is broken off and the connectors are “backing off” from each other and creating an open circuit. Etc etc…

You’ll figure it out!
 
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On my 14, disconnecting MC reservoir level sensor also disabled traction control (and probably ABS, don't recall).
Another thing to check, if an 08 has that.
 
22
26
Exp. Type
HPDE
Exp. Level
Under 3 Years
South Carolina
Posting to tie a bow on my experience. Installed the 6P Brembos and Gyrodisc rotors. My travails are documented in previous posts, but chiefly were difficulties installing the spring clips from LMR, trying to run Hawk race pads on the street, and dealing with a pedal that was both very low and very soft.

First and mostest, thanks to Tim at OP Mustangs. No vendor has EVER provided as much assistance as he did--on this forum before I ever bought a thing from him (and was complaining about other vendors' products), and privately after I did what I should have done in the first place and bought stuff from him. I would never have been happy with my install without his assistance.

Second, my pedal travel issues. Running a race pad on the street meant that I had to stand on the pedal to get the cold pad to grip. Compounding (see what I did there?) this was my dumb decision to bleed only the front calipers, and less dumb failure to bleed the ABS. After an ABS bleed half the travel was gone. After bleeding all four wheels (who knew there would be a big bubble in the left rear?) half of the rest was gone. Who suggested I do both? Tim, of course.

Next, pads. After swapping in the GLoc GS-1's (also Tim's recommendation--and from whom I purchased them), I have a pedal that is like my old Army haircut--high and tight.

Last, the spring clips. The pins and clips OPM sent installed effortlessly. No idea what was wrong (or what I did wrong) with the kit from LMR.

Lessons learned: Love this forum, the patience from old heads, and the selfless contributions from folks like Tim. Thanks to all of you who helped. Thanks also to those who (gently) pointed out the dumbass mistakes I made along the way. No idea where I might be without the help I get here and from others online. (Unsuccessfully resisting the impulse to say "I have always relied upon the kindness of strangers.")
 
5,814
6,979
Exp. Type
W2W Racing
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20+ Years
Pleasanton: 1/2 way between Sonoma and Laguna Seca
Posting to tie a bow on my experience. Installed the 6P Brembos and Gyrodisc rotors. My travails are documented in previous posts, but chiefly were difficulties installing the spring clips from LMR, trying to run Hawk race pads on the street, and dealing with a pedal that was both very low and very soft.

First and mostest, thanks to Tim at OP Mustangs. No vendor has EVER provided as much assistance as he did--on this forum before I ever bought a thing from him (and was complaining about other vendors' products), and privately after I did what I should have done in the first place and bought stuff from him. I would never have been happy with my install without his assistance.

Second, my pedal travel issues. Running a race pad on the street meant that I had to stand on the pedal to get the cold pad to grip. Compounding (see what I did there?) this was my dumb decision to bleed only the front calipers, and less dumb failure to bleed the ABS. After an ABS bleed half the travel was gone. After bleeding all four wheels (who knew there would be a big bubble in the left rear?) half of the rest was gone. Who suggested I do both? Tim, of course.

Next, pads. After swapping in the GLoc GS-1's (also Tim's recommendation--and from whom I purchased them), I have a pedal that is like my old Army haircut--high and tight.

Last, the spring clips. The pins and clips OPM sent installed effortlessly. No idea what was wrong (or what I did wrong) with the kit from LMR.

Lessons learned: Love this forum, the patience from old heads, and the selfless contributions from folks like Tim. Thanks to all of you who helped. Thanks also to those who (gently) pointed out the dumbass mistakes I made along the way. No idea where I might be without the help I get here and from others online. (Unsuccessfully resisting the impulse to say "I have always relied upon the kindness of strangers.")
This is a special place. 🥰
 
This is a special place. 🥰
Absolutely!!! I would have never been able to finish preparing my stang for the track ( big brake upgrade, camber plates with optimal camber, appropriate wheels and tires that completely compliment all handling and braking upgrades ) without ALL of the valuable information that other fellow forum members have graciously contributed. There is not only the information but the total awesomeness of the willingness to take the time to chat via threads and PMs to discuss, assist to sort issues and or help make extremely important vehicle decisions. I could tell this place is full of straight up good people right from the beginning. I have been in other forums though the years with various hobbies some good some not so good ( ya didn't last long with the BS ego driven ones.. ) TMO is truly the best! Thank you TMO and TMO members for being so valuable in my journey of pure track enjoyment! You all are the best!!!

Mark

Edit: I missed the vendors here. Every one that I have purchased from or even just chatted with have been, pleasant, professional, helpful, informative and great to deal with.
 
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