Sway bar for Fast Road Car

[Hawaii50]

My 2013 GT Track Pack has factory sway bars. At one point it had Steeda Items, however the ride was too stiff with polyurethane bushings.

I later reinstalled the factory parts. It has B12 struts/shocks and rough springs. The car is a road car so comfort to me is the priority. I'd like to still improve upon the handling and was looking at getting the factory boss 302 or the Laguna seca sway bar. Which would you recommend I go with and why?

 

[TMSBOSS]

Tires!
The single most noticeable improvement in performance will come with tires. What are you running?

 

[Champale]

One of the best things I did to my 2013 LS was installing the tiny, pencil thin V6 convertible sway bar. Really helped the rear end put power down out of corners.

 

[Hawaii50]

Tires!
The single most noticeable improvement in performance will come with tires. What are you running?

Michelin Pilot 4S, EC7 19x10 square.

 

[Hawaii50]

One of the best things I did to my 2013 LS was installing the tiny, pencil thin V6 convertible sway bar. Really helped the rear end put power down out of corners.

I was reading about smaller pre facelift s197 sway bars. What I don't get is why Ford engineers didn't install those smaller away bars when engineering the boss 302. Surely they played around with all sway bar sizes to test?

 

[stevbd]

I was reading about smaller pre facelift s197 sway bars. What I don't get is why Ford engineers didn't install those smaller away bars when engineering the boss 302. Surely they played around with all sway bar sizes to test?

I don't know but maybe they were trying to reduce understeer at the limit while still running a staggered setup for aesthetic or marketing purposes? Read around on here and you'll see lots of people agree with @Champale. A small or no rear bar combined with good damping and a square setup (all of which you have) can work really well both on track and street. On the street you will feel the rear axle is smoother, absorbs bumps better, and skitters less over bad pavement. Everything else being equal (it never is), the car will understeer more. But it will understeer less with your square setup so that is likely a wash.

It's a little hard to answer your question about "improve handling" because that can mean a lot of different things. What exactly are you trying to fix or improve? Before you start buying stuff try removing your rear bar entirely and see how you like it, it's free and easy to do and will give you a good reference point. Good luck.

 

[Hawaii50]

I don't know but maybe they were trying to reduce understeer at the limit while still running a staggered setup for aesthetic or marketing purposes? Read around on here and you'll see lots of people agree with @Champale. A small or no rear bar combined with good damping and a square setup (all of which you have) can work really well both on track and street. On the street you will feel the rear axle is smoother, absorbs bumps better, and skitters less over bad pavement. Everything else being equal (it never is), the car will understeer more. But it will understeer less with your square setup so that is likely a wash.

It's a little hard to answer your question about "improve handling" because that can mean a lot of different things. What exactly are you trying to fix or improve? Before you start buying stuff try removing your rear bar entirely and see how you like it, it's free and easy to do and will give you a good reference point. Good luck.

Hello, I was reading the square set up thread last night which seems to go against what Ford and the aftermarket direction headed towards.

I live close to Tail of the dragon. I'm going to test my GT and see how it wheels.

When I say improve handling, I've read many reviews from the period when our cars were new. All of the motoring press raved about the handling of the boss 302. So having a Track pack I looked at what were the differences between the two models and what can I upgrade to make it like that better handling Mustang.

Again I'm not an engineer or a track expert so I do not know.

 

[PatientZero]

Sway bars should have very little to do with ride quality. If you're looking to maintain good ride quality, keep a relatively mild spring/damper combo but put the beefiest sway bar you can find to control the body roll in cornering.

 

[Hawaii50]

The Ford performance sway bar is 22mm which is the same as 2011+ V6. @Champale which specific sway bar did you use?

 

[Hawaii50]

Sway bars should have very little to do with ride quality. If you're looking to maintain good ride quality, keep a relatively mild spring/damper combo but put the beefiest sway bar you can find to control the body roll in cornering.

Your experience is to put on the thickest sway bar?

 

[blacksheep-1]

Whoah, slow down a second.
First off, no matter how well a car handles from the factory, every manufacturer designs in some "push" at the limit, it is dione because if you are selling millions of cars, you don't ever want the car to be "loose" at the limit because 99% of the normies out there would go nuts, lock it up and loose control... every time. So that is an issue that is baked in to the car's design.
Secondly, there are 2 schools of thought on handling, a guy named Dick Guldstrand said that the entire suspesnion package has to work together to make the car perform at it's limits. Another guy.. I think it was Bill Mitchell, was more pragmatic, he ran the softest springs imagineabale to follow the road surface, then did all the tuning with sway bars. Notice, that I never mentioned shocks, it is because shock tech was no where near where it is today, it has improved in leaps and bounds. So. over time we've evolved more closely to Guldstrand's view that Mitchells;, but that doesn't mean it is no longer valid to some degree.
The reason a lot of cars are "square" is because the tires can be rotated, there is a lot of track day tires available, and most rules packages call out 18 inch wheels. If you feel the need to run a mixed setup, then by all means do so, but most rack guys end up with 18 square.
With all that in mind, the basic, industry standard is the Ford "blue" bar up front and the 18mm rear sway bar and a stock Gt500 center link. this is what probably 75% of the cars in the old Grand Am days used.. at least the fast ones did. That still leaves the shocks, wide open, but those guys were all running $10K Penske coil overs, which even if you did run those, you would have to constantly rebuild them as they are performance spec, in fact ANY coil over on a street car needs to be rebuilt every 20K miles, at least. They just don't hold up to the road crud, grease and road kill. This is why I like the Ford Performance suspension packages, they are all designed to work together, and the shocks/springs are segregated, making maintenance easy.
So.. as TMS boss mentioned, is tires, tires are the absolutely the biggest improvement you can make in any direction, comfort, or handling. IF you want handling, go with a short sidewall tire, if you want comfort you should look more to a tire with a tall side wall that will absorb the road irregularities, someplace in the middle of those two is where you want to be, and there is so much info there that it would take volumes to discuss it here. I will say this, the Goodyear supercar 3 is what we've run in WRL, and right now, this minute, I would say they are the best bang for the buck, you could literally run those tires the entire 14 hour race, rain or shine. You would still need to evaluate the size with regards to ride quality, but I can vouche personally for how well those tires work.

 

[stevbd]

Sway bars should have very little to do with ride quality. If you're looking to maintain good ride quality, keep a relatively mild spring/damper combo but put the beefiest sway bar you can find to control the body roll in cornering.

Not trying to argue and I agree with a 2-wheel bump like a speed bump where the rear wheels are moving up and down in unison. But if it's a single wheel bump I don't think the tire patch knows the difference between a stiff spring rate and stiff sway bar, no? I think wheel rate is wheel rate regardless when you're dealing with a single wheel impact. My personal experience is the rear is much more settled on patchy pavement at speed with no rear sway bar or a small bar (I originally went no bar and then to the 18mm to balance things out on track), pretty soft springs, and good dampers. Of course it also puts power down better on track.

@Hawaii50 I assume you found this thread: https://trackmustangsonline.com/threads/s197-spring-and-sway-bar-rates.13152/

Apart from tires the single best thing you can do for handling is to upgrade your shocks which you've already done. This video is an oldie but goodie and it makes the same point, just a plain old GT not a Boss. Go to 7:15 and following where Randy comments on the dampers:

 

[blacksheep-1]

Great vid, the Boss 302 was designed to beat the M3, which it did handily. Shock comments noted

 

[PatientZero]

Not trying to argue and I agree with a 2-wheel bump like a speed bump where the rear wheels are moving up and down in unison. But if it's a single wheel bump I don't think the tire patch knows the difference between a stiff spring rate and stiff sway bar, no? I think wheel rate is wheel rate regardless when you're dealing with a single wheel impact. My personal experience is the rear is much more settled on patchy pavement at speed with no rear sway bar or a small bar (I originally went no bar and then to the 18mm to balance things out on track), pretty soft springs, and good dampers. Of course it also puts power down better on track.

I'm sure you're correct. But if he wants to "improve handling and maintain ride quality" I would think stiffer sway bars would be a better option than stiffer springs. That's all I'm trying to say.

 

[Hawaii50]

Not trying to argue and I agree with a 2-wheel bump like a speed bump where the rear wheels are moving up and down in unison. But if it's a single wheel bump I don't think the tire patch knows the difference between a stiff spring rate and stiff sway bar, no? I think wheel rate is wheel rate regardless when you're dealing with a single wheel impact. My personal experience is the rear is much more settled on patchy pavement at speed with no rear sway bar or a small bar (I originally went no bar and then to the 18mm to balance things out on track), pretty soft springs, and good dampers. Of course it also puts power down better on track.

@Hawaii50 I assume you found this thread: https://trackmustangsonline.com/threads/s197-spring-and-sway-bar-rates.13152/

Apart from tires the single best thing you can do for handling is to upgrade your shocks which you've already done. This video is an oldie but goodie and it makes the same point, just a plain old GT not a Boss. Go to 7:15 and following where Randy comments on the dampers:

Yes I saw that post. Thank for your input.

 

[Champale]

Stiffer swaybars DEFINITELY car be felt in the ride quality. I used the 18mm rear swaybar and, honestly, it was so thin and flexible even with just my bare hands I suspect that running the car with no rear bar would have been effectively the same. OP you might want to remove yours and see what you think.

 

[Hawaii50]

Stiffer swaybars DEFINITELY car be felt in the ride quality. I used the 18mm rear swaybar and, honestly, it was so thin and flexible even with just my bare hands I suspect that running the car with no rear bar would have been effectively the same. OP you might want to remove yours and see what you think.

Are you suggesting to remove it completely and see how it drives?

 

[Champale]

Yes. Re-read stevbd's posts. Also, I think @blacksheep-1 has mentioned in years past that some of the race teams didn't use rear bars on occasion. Worst case scenario is that the car puts the power down too well and induces understeer. You would be very surprised how thin and flexible the 18mm bar is.

 

[blacksheep-1]

Yes. Re-read stevbd's posts. Also, I think @blacksheep-1 has mentioned in years past that some of the race teams didn't use rear bars on occasion. Worst case scenario is that the car puts the power down too well and induces understeer. You would be very surprised how thin and flexible the 18mm bar is.

The biggest rear bar I have seen on a competitive S197 is like 20mm, they all ran 18mm or no bar in GS back in the day.

 

[OX1]

On street only cars, I'm a big bar, soft shock/spring guy and here is why. Getting to "the absolute limit" is many time double or even triple the posted curve speed limit on the street.
So do I care if I understeer/oversteer or whatever, at that limit, since I have to be driving like "maniac" on the street, to reach it?

More important to me in initial turn-in. Yes tires are number one, but razor sharp turn-in feel, is mostly sway bars, unless you make springs/shocks more stiff than you wanted
for street use. Even very slow speed with quick turn in, can feel "sporty" on the street. The best part is being able to avoid potholes you didn't see (due to car in front of you lets say) and save your rims for another day.........